Catholic Church Commits to the Abolition of the Death Penalty

[Prokofievian]

You have to think about things in the perspective that they are said within the religion. We have souls that live FORVEVER. God knows everything so just saying the words "I repent" doesn't get you into heaven. Saying the words and meaning them does though-- even though the darkness in that person could take a good bit of pain and anguish as God is removing it from the person.

Should a soul that lives forever be unforgiven even though they have repented and been healed of the darkness that caused them to sin so deeply? ages and ages passed the time when the soul they hurt has been healed, forgiven and moved on?

I work in this area of life and have watched countless people go through the process of repentance for serious sin. I have too. God may forgive them immediately but the healing process, the process of the removal of the evil that is in that person, that can take years to complete and requires a long term effort. Often the further someone progresses on this spiritual path, the more horrible and painful the sin they committed seems to them.

It is not the get out of jail free card that you think it is.

I actually have a sincere question to ask, because I can't be bothered to look into the theology behind it. But if our souls live forever, why is there such an emphasis on what is done in this life? Why must penance and acceptance of Christ necessary in this life, and not the next? Is there scriptural justification for this? Why can't a soul in hell repent?

 

[KnightTemplar]

I'm far too cynical to believe in the concept of a just and loving God. That's one reason I like Greek, Celtic and Norse Mythology; their Gods and Goddesses didn't pretend they were morally superior to humans. Just much more powerful. They behaved pretty much as we would if we could rape, pillage and burn without any consequences

But like Sinatra said, whatever gets you through a cold, dark night. Whether it's the Bible or a bottle of Jack D So I'm not going to take the piss out of true believers. But I would like to ask the Catholics here a question: how strong is your faith? What would make you question it? I know some people can maintain their faith even in the face of personal tragedy, the loss of a loved one to illness or violent crime. So let's think bigger.

A hypothetical scenario: ISIS steal or buy a Nuke from Pakistan or Russia. They manage to smuggle it into or near Rome. On Christmas Eve. The plan works perfectly. When the Nuke goes off, it slaughters thousands, including the Pope himself of course, destroys the Vatican City and irradiates so much of Rome the Eternal City has to be evacuated. It's the greatest terror attack in history.

Would that make you question your faith? If the very heart of the Catholic Church, thousands of years of history, was turned into a glow in the dark car park, would that make you tap out? Or would you still believe it was somehow all part of God's plan?

 

[franklinstower]

I actually have a sincere question to ask, because I can't be bothered to look into the theology behind it. But if our souls live forever, why is there such an emphasis on what is done in this life? Why must penance and acceptance of Christ necessary in this life, and not the next? Is there scriptural justification for this? Why can't a soul in hell repent?

That depends on who you ask. The very short answer is that the early Christians did not have a fully formed unified concept of what hell was. Catholicism settled on an eternal hell largely with the help of Augustine. The Orthodox Church is to this day largely universalist meaning that everyone will eventually go to heaven.

Watch this documentary if you can, it is one of the.best I've ever seen and presents both perspectives very fairly.

I am personally a universalist.

https://www.google.com/search?biw=3......1.........0i71j0i67j46i67j0i10.RLbDRFYCD7U

 

[Prokofievian]

That depends on who you ask. The very short answer is that the early Christians did not have a fully formed unified concept of what hell was. Catholicism settled on an eternal hell largely with the help of Augustine. The Orthodox Church is to this day largely universalist meaning that everyone will eventually go to heaven.

Watch this documentary if you can, it is one of the.best I've ever seen and presents both perspectives very fairly.

I am personally a universalist.

https://www.google.com/search?biw=3......1.........0i71j0i67j46i67j0i10.RLbDRFYCD7U

Thanks meng.

 

[franklinstower]

I'm far too cynical to believe in the concept of a just and loving God. That's one reason I like Greek, Celtic and Norse Mythology; their Gods and Goddesses didn't pretend they were morally superior to humans. Just much more powerful. They behaved pretty much as we would if we could rape, pillage and burn without any consequences

But like Sinatra said, whatever gets you through a cold, dark night. Whether it's the Bible or a bottle of Jack D So I'm not going to take the piss out of true believers. But I would like to ask the Catholics here a question: how strong is your faith? What would make you question it? I know some people can maintain their faith even in the face of personal tragedy, the loss of a loved one to illness or violent crime. So let's think bigger.

A hypothetical scenario: ISIS steal or buy a Nuke from Pakistan or Russia. They manage to smuggle it into or near Rome. On Christmas Eve. The plan works perfectly. When the Nuke goes off, it slaughters thousands, including the Pope himself of course, destroys the Vatican City and irradiates so much of Rome the Eternal City has to be evacuated. It's the greatest terror attack in history.

Would that make you question your faith? If the very heart of the Catholic Church, thousands of years of history, was turned into a glow in the dark car park, would that make

you tap out? Or would you still believe it was somehow all part of God's plan?

A horrific event such as you describe would have no effect whatsoever on my faith in God and Christ. In the end the turning to God that a situation like that would require would only deepen faith.

We are not promised to be spared from suffering. Instead God promises to be with us, in and through our suffering and to suffer with us. The experience of being able to notice and participate in God through suffering is one if the most compelling aspects of Catholicism for me.

 

[Prokofievian]

That depends on who you ask. The very short answer is that the early Christians did not have a fully formed unified concept of what hell was. Catholicism settled on an eternal hell largely with the help of Augustine. The Orthodox Church is to this day largely universalist meaning that everyone will eventually go to heaven.

Watch this documentary if you can, it is one of the.best I've ever seen and presents both perspectives very fairly.

I am personally a universalist.

https://www.google.com/search?biw=3......1.........0i71j0i67j46i67j0i10.RLbDRFYCD7U

Working theory: it seems like the protestants might have a role to play in this. They don't believe in an immortal soul. They think everyone perishes when you die, it's just that when the resurrection happens the believers go to heaven, and the heathens go to hell. That is at least internally coherent.

 

[usmctanker242]

how did you know Im a sith? lol

na just messing, also I dont support either position so chill out dude.... but if you cant see the hypocrisy in claiming all life is sacred whilst also supporting the DP then thats on you

I don't claim that all life is sacred. Your poor attempt to paint people as hypocrites is silly and you should be taken to order for it. There is no realistic argument where you can compare someone on death row to an unborn baby. One has lost their right to live via due process and the other has hurt no one.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

I don't claim that all life is sacred. Your poor attempt to paint people as hypocrites is silly and you should be taken to order for it. There is no realistic argument where you can compare someone on death row to an unborn baby. One has lost their right to live via due process and the other has hurt no one.

thats not how it works.... if you are "pro life" its all encompassing, no exceptions

 

[usmctanker242]

thats not how it works.... if you are "pro life" its all encompassing, no exceptions

Where are you coming up with this bullshit? Are you talking strictly about the Catholics and the Pope, or people in general? If you're talking about Catholics then I'll concede because I have no idea what they believe. But normal people don't need to have an "all or nothing" agenda when it comes to not wanting to see unborn babies get wire hooks through the heart / brain.

Or perhaps you're being sarcastic and without the tone of voice it's not coming across well?

 

[MayhemMonkey]

Where are you coming up with this bullshit? Are you talking strictly about the Catholics and the Pope, or people in general? If you're talking about Catholics then I'll concede because I have no idea what they believe. But normal people don't need to have an "all or nothing" agenda when it comes to not wanting to see unborn babies get wire hooks through the heart / brain.

Or perhaps you're being sarcastic and without the tone of voice it's not coming across well?

my original comment was to rustle jimmies..... so you could say that. Im just having a bit of fun, dont look too deep into it

 

[Tankeray]

catholicism is such a pointless religion

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Our prison system is endemic of our cultural woes.

Pope Francis says much of the modern world is “throw away culture.”

This attitude is the result of seeing difficulty as a vice and convenience as a virtue.

It’s easy enough to bring cloth bags to the supermarket. But it’s a slight inconvenience. So we don’t do it. It’s easy enough to carry around a mug or water bottle. But it’s a slight inconvenience. So we don’t do it.

As a result, we throw away millions of tons of plastic bags and bottles and our oceans are full of plastic.

We prefer cheaply made goods that can be cheaply replaced over finely crafted goods that we would be willing to pay to fix.

Our same attitude, tragically, extends to people. We don’t invest in people as if they are finely made goods, worth caring for and fixing

We to throw them away.

Some may say your view is overly simplistic and idealic but i completely agree with you, people dont give a shit about the consequences of their actions if it doesnt affect them right here right now and would rather protest a big thing they realisticaly can't affect.

Wise post mate, hespect

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

There is no doubt that for the majority of human beings doing time in prison makes you a way worse person.

The desire for vengence causes us to work against ourselves and our own interests.

Yet we have a media conditioning us to push for tougher prisons all the time! We are being taught vengance is more important than rehabilitation.
I apreciate the hurt of victims of crime and i agree people should be punished however our current mindset just creates more victims down the line by making a one time offender a career criminal.

I apreciate some people are just evil and cannot be rehabilitated but sadly we treat all people who commit crimes the same so these truly evil people are infecting kids who have just made mistakes and, in other circumstances and with better guidance, could be functional members of society.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Forgive me if I’m incorrect, but that isn’t how I remember Catholic doctrine. A major difference between Catholics and Protestants concerns the sacrament of confession/reconciliation. This means stating your sin, to a priest, at which point he appoints a penance you must adhere to. Protestants, if I remember correctly, only need to make the confession to god for forgiveness, not to a priest. I have heard stories where the penance given by the priest included confessing to the police, and accepting the judicial punishment, as it demonstrates contrition to god. Once again, I could very well be mistaken, but this is how I remember the process working. Catholics don’t have a “get out of jail free card”, even on their death beds, for normal parishioners.

The purpose of Penance in the Catholic Church is for the absolution from mortal sin. Mortal sins are sins that take you further from God or turn you away from God (which is a main point of Hell - being away from God).

To be a mortal sin the sin has to A) be of a serious nature, B ) committed deliberately and C) committed with full knowledge that is a serious sin. But to be "mortal sin" it has to check all three of those boxes. I believe the thought is that doing this sort of destroys the grace in your soul, taking you further from God. And the whole goal is to become closer to God (with Hell being farthest from His love as you could get). Denouncing Christ's teachings, blasphemy or worshiping other gods would be good examples of mortal sin. I think people more think of physical acts like murder in the case of this thread as a mortal sin. I don't think it necessarily is, it one of the seven deadly sins as those are sins that lead to further sin.

So if you have mortal sin, you recognize your sin with good conscience and confess to the priest. The priest as you said assigns penance, but the point of the penance is some thing you do with sincerity to bring you back closer to God and absolve you from straying away. Confession and penance isn't to "forgive your sins", because God can forgive sins. And obviously the point of Christianity is that Jesus Christ, son of God, came and forgave our sins if we believe in him.

So back to the point of the post you quoted. Penance isn't really a get out of jail free card either, its an assigned task from the priest to bring you back towards God. God, through Christ, already forgave the sin. So originally a poster said "execute the murderer and send them to Hell" to which I said if they have accepted Jesus Christ they would still go to Heaven. I think you are accurate in that Penance assigned could theoretically be accepting judicial death sentence, but that completion of penance, absolving the sin, and getting back on path towards God would still get the person to Heaven.

At least that's how I understand it. I was baptized Catholic but haven't practiced Christianity since I was young (I don't believe the Abrahamic faiths to be true). My Mother in Law is practicing, and occasionally I have to take her to Church (she had a stroke and can't drive). But I have some experience with Catholicism obviously (family is Catholic, I attended as a kid, mother went to Cathollic school etc). Your post was good adn I wanted to reply once I could use an actual computer lol.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

My view is that if taking a life is punishable by death is the executioner not guilty of the same crime?

I am someone who has a strong view on crime, i like the idea of cutting a thiefs hand off for example, but the death penalty means you have failed as a society

 

[jonharrison]

The purpose of Penance in the Catholic Church is for the absolution from mortal sin. Mortal sins are sins that take you further from God or turn you away from God (which is a main point of Hell - being away from God).

To be a mortal sin the sin has to A) be of a serious nature, B ) committed deliberately and C) committed with full knowledge that is a serious sin. But to be "mortal sin" it has to check all three of those boxes. I believe the thought is that doing this sort of destroys the grace in your soul, taking you further from God. And the whole goal is to become closer to God (with Hell being farthest from His love as you could get). Denouncing Christ's teachings, blasphemy or worshiping other gods would be good examples of mortal sin. I think people more think of physical acts like murder in the case of this thread as a mortal sin. I don't think it necessarily is, it one of the seven deadly sins as those are sins that lead to further sin.

So if you have mortal sin, you recognize your sin with good conscience and confess to the priest. The priest as you said assigns penance, but the point of the penance is some thing you do with sincerity to bring you back closer to God and absolve you from straying away. Confession and penance isn't to "forgive your sins", because God can forgive sins. And obviously the point of Christianity is that Jesus Christ, son of God, came and forgave our sins if we believe in him.

So back to the point of the post you quoted. Penance isn't really a get out of jail free card either, its an assigned task from the priest to bring you back towards God. God, through Christ, already forgave the sin. So originally a poster said "execute the murderer and send them to Hell" to which I said if they have accepted Jesus Christ they would still go to Heaven. I think you are accurate in that Penance assigned could theoretically be accepting judicial death sentence, but that completion of penance, absolving the sin, and getting back on path towards God would still get the person to Heaven.

At least that's how I understand it. I was baptized Catholic but haven't practiced Christianity since I was young (I don't believe the Abrahamic faiths to be true). My Mother in Law is practicing, and occasionally I have to take her to Church (she had a stroke and can't drive). But I have some experience with Catholicism obviously (family is Catholic, I attended as a kid, mother went to Cathollic school etc). Your post was good adn I wanted to reply once I could use an actual computer lol.

I appreciate this, it was a good, well reasoned response and I learned from it. I haven’t been regularly practicing since I was a kid, so it’s all a bit hazy. Thumbs up to you, sir!

Edit: I also didn’t really mean that accepting execution was the penance, more a judicial sentence such as admitting guilt in court, fully knowing the consequences which will be imposed, but admitting it anyways to clear your conscience, could be a component of penance. More I meant that the Catholic Church believes in consequences in order for forgiveness, whereas other people may think that all you have to do is ask god and you’re forgiven, with no real tangible steps taken.

 

[babycart]

My view is that if taking a life is punishable by death is the executioner not guilty of the same crime?

I am someone who has a strong view on crime, i like the idea of cutting a thiefs hand off for example, but the death penalty means you have failed as a society

Here is the thing: many OT heroes have killed. Do they deserve death? David son of Jesse killed many of his enemies, and also had his soldier Uriah killed as well in order to steal Uriah's wife Bathsheba. Did God kill David for adultery? Nuh-uh. God killed their newborn son instead, cuz no David = no Jesus. It fucks up the plan.

At the same time, if someone were to put a bullet into Hitler before, does the gunman deserve death? The Navy SEAL that pulled the trigger on bin Laden, does he deserve death as well? Note that going into another country to kill bin Laden in his own home is equivalent to putting bin Laden on the death row in absentia. So if this Catholic BS goes through, bin Laden should be spared the DP. Is he worth it?​

The purpose of Penance in the Catholic Church is for the absolution from mortal sin. Mortal sins are sins that take you further from God or turn you away from God (which is a main point of Hell - being away from God).

To be a mortal sin the sin has to A) be of a serious nature, B ) committed deliberately and C) committed with full knowledge that is a serious sin. But to be "mortal sin" it has to check all three of those boxes. I believe the thought is that doing this sort of destroys the grace in your soul, taking you further from God. And the whole goal is to become closer to God (with Hell being farthest from His love as you could get). Denouncing Christ's teachings, blasphemy or worshiping other gods would be good examples of mortal sin. I think people more think of physical acts like murder in the case of this thread as a mortal sin. I don't think it necessarily is, it one of the seven deadly sins as those are sins that lead to further sin.

So if you have mortal sin, you recognize your sin with good conscience and confess to the priest. The priest as you said assigns penance, but the point of the penance is some thing you do with sincerity to bring you back closer to God and absolve you from straying away. Confession and penance isn't to "forgive your sins", because God can forgive sins. And obviously the point of Christianity is that Jesus Christ, son of God, came and forgave our sins if we believe in him.

So back to the point of the post you quoted. Penance isn't really a get out of jail free card either, its an assigned task from the priest to bring you back towards God. God, through Christ, already forgave the sin. So originally a poster said "execute the murderer and send them to Hell" to which I said if they have accepted Jesus Christ they would still go to Heaven. I think you are accurate in that Penance assigned could theoretically be accepting judicial death sentence, but that completion of penance, absolving the sin, and getting back on path towards God would still get the person to Heaven.

At least that's how I understand it. I was baptized Catholic but haven't practiced Christianity since I was young (I don't believe the Abrahamic faiths to be true). My Mother in Law is practicing, and occasionally I have to take her to Church (she had a stroke and can't drive). But I have some experience with Catholicism obviously (family is Catholic, I attended as a kid, mother went to Cathollic school etc). Your post was good adn I wanted to reply once I could use an actual computer lol.

AFAIK as a former altar boy, correct. The 'get-out-of-jail' card is the purgatory, where sinners who weren't heavy sinners (mostly no mortal sins, only venial) are jailed after death instead of hell (according to Catholicism). These souls can be 'purified' and admitted to heaven by means of the prayers, penances and indulgences of the living. Sadly, these indulgences (another term for 'donations') were one of the leading causes of why Martin Luther nailed his '95 Theses' and caused the split of Catholicism and Protestantism.

 

[babycart]

Edit: Double Post​

 

[luckyshot]

I actually have a sincere question to ask, because I can't be bothered to look into the theology behind it. But if our souls live forever, why is there such an emphasis on what is done in this life? Why must penance and acceptance of Christ necessary in this life, and not the next? Is there scriptural justification for this? Why can't a soul in hell repent?

This is beyond my depth theologically, but I’ll venture a response:

There are those who have argued that the Devil himself COULD repent at any time. But he won’t because his defining feature is pride. That is why pride is the worst vice; it keeps us from accepting mercy.

Catholic teaching is that there is heaven and hell, but also Purgatory, so there is not a 100% sharp distinction between action in this life and action in the afterlife.

Catholics also hold that, after his death, Jesus descended into hell- known as the “harrowing of hell”- and all the righeous souls who lived before him were saved.

God is a God of infinite mercy AND infinite justice. He gives every human every necessary chance to accept Him, but he forces no one.

Hell, most simply, is the state of the soul that has rejected God.

You have to remember that, for Christians, Jesus is God. Period. So salvation is not a transaction: accept Jesus and he GIVES you salvation... rather, accepting Jesus IS salvation. It is accepting the very God-ness of God. That IS salvation.

I'm far too cynical to believe in the concept of a just and loving God. That's one reason I like Greek, Celtic and Norse Mythology; their Gods and Goddesses didn't pretend they were morally superior to humans. Just much more powerful. They behaved pretty much as we would if we could rape, pillage and burn without any consequences

But like Sinatra said, whatever gets you through a cold, dark night. Whether it's the Bible or a bottle of Jack D So I'm not going to take the piss out of true believers. But I would like to ask the Catholics here a question: how strong is your faith? What would make you question it? I know some people can maintain their faith even in the face of personal tragedy, the loss of a loved one to illness or violent crime. So let's think bigger.

A hypothetical scenario: ISIS steal or buy a Nuke from Pakistan or Russia. They manage to smuggle it into or near Rome. On Christmas Eve. The plan works perfectly. When the Nuke goes off, it slaughters thousands, including the Pope himself of course, destroys the Vatican City and irradiates so much of Rome the Eternal City has to be evacuated. It's the greatest terror attack in history.

Would that make you question your faith? If the very heart of the Catholic Church, thousands of years of history, was turned into a glow in the dark car park, would that make you tap out? Or would you still believe it was somehow all part of God's plan?

Human free will is part of God’s plan, so theologically, no, the scenario you describe would not shake a true believer’s faith.

It would obviously be massively devastating... but would it be any more devastating the destruction of the Temple... or the crucifixion of Christ?

 

[babycart]

God is a God of infinite mercy AND infinite justice. He gives every human every necessary chance to accept Him, but he forces no one.

Exodus 7:3 I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,

Yahweh, God the Father Himself has spoken. If that's not forcing someone I don't know what is.

Human free will is part of God’s plan, so theologically, no, the scenario you describe would not shake a true believer’s faith.

Again, Exodus 7:3. And also King Saul's case where he got afflicted by the evil spirit sent by the Lord. Can it be called free will when you got someone fucking with your sanity left and right?