Catholic Church Commits to the Abolition of the Death Penalty


Here is the thing: many OT heroes have killed. Do they deserve death? David son of Jesse killed many of his enemies, and also had his soldier Uriah killed as well in order to steal Uriah's wife Bathsheba. Did God kill David for adultery? Nuh-uh. God killed their newborn son instead, cuz no David = no Jesus. It fucks up the plan.

At the same time, if someone were to put a bullet into Hitler before, does the gunman deserve death? The Navy SEAL that pulled the trigger on bin Laden, does he deserve death as well? Note that going into another country to kill bin Laden in his own home is equivalent to putting bin Laden on the death row in absentia. So if this Catholic BS goes through, bin Laden should be spared the DP. Is he worth it?



AFAIK as a former altar boy, correct. The 'get-out-of-jail' card is the purgatory, where sinners who weren't heavy sinners (mostly no mortal sins, only venial) are jailed after death instead of hell (according to Catholicism). These souls can be 'purified' and admitted to heaven by means of the prayers, penances and indulgences of the living. Sadly, these indulgences (another term for 'donations') were one of the leading causes of why Martin Luther nailed his '95 Theses' and caused the split of Catholicism and Protestantism.

Its a murky area and your points re. Bin laden and Hitler present unique contexts however ghese were/would be acts of war, it's a grey are for sure but at least in my mind killing 'in the field' where a prisoner cannot be taken is different than killing a prisoner.
There's no easy answer
 
my original comment was to rustle jimmies..... so you could say that. Im just having a bit of fun, dont look too deep into it

So you're basically a self-confessed troll...fair enough. Cheers man, at least you had a good laugh at my Sith comment. haha
 
Your barometer for morality isn't needed anymore and the credibility of your entire organization is compromised Frank.
 
So you're basically a self-confessed troll...fair enough. Cheers man, at least you had a good laugh at my Sith comment. haha
not all the time..... just depending on my mood and the topic of certain threads. Usually Im just looking for conversations in the War Room
 
I dont have a problem with this even if I dont necessarily agree. For one thing I think anyone who habitually harms children should probably be killed. At least give them the option because a lot of them know theyre irrevocably badly wired.

The human species is a death cult, we should celebrate life more.

Im in a calm gentle mode at the moment though, so that opinion could easily change to "let it burn" depending on how I feel like viewing the world that day. Im purposely very flexible in my beliefs with my one adamant rule being do not intentionally harm others.
 
God is a God of infinite mercy AND infinite justice.

We're treading on some shaky ground here, bro, well on our way violating non-contradiction. Mercy is the suspension of justice. It is someone not getting what they deserve.

Numbers 31: “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident so that a plague struck the Lord’s people struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Would you classify this as justice or mercy?

Hell, most simply, is the state of the soul that has rejected God.

That's like your opinion, man. Ask a thousand theologians "what is hell" and you get a thousand answers, and none of them with much scriptural support since the Bible does not have much to say on Hell. The concept of hell is stuff people made up over the years which is why there are so many versions of it.

You have to remember that, for Christians, Jesus is God. Period. So salvation is not a transaction: accept Jesus and he GIVES you salvation... rather, accepting Jesus IS salvation. It is accepting the very God-ness of God. That IS salvation.

Salvation comes from God by grace through faith. The field of Soteriology is all about salvation and, again, there are as many positions on this as there are people. The Bible is really over the place on it too.


He gives every human every necessary chance to accept Him, but he forces no one. Human free will is part of God’s plan

Hey, yo, human-kind. Nice species you got going on here. You know, uh, here's the deal: I'm all powerful and all of this stuff you see around you is mine. I made it. So, I was thinking, either you accept me as your master and, maybe, I won't do the most terrible thing I can imagine to you for all of eternity. Sound like a good deal? Enjoy your free will, feelgoodpeace.
 
We're treading on some shaky ground here, bro, well on our way volating non-contradiction. Mercy is the suspension of justice. It is someone not getting what they deserve.
To say God is violating non-contradiction is like complaining that fire isn't square.

He is merciful and he is just. He is merciful when it is right to be merciful, and he is just when it is right to be just.

To paraphrase GK Chesterton, God is red and God is white; God is not pink. He owns the perfection of every virtue in it's extreme-- he is not Artistotle or the Stoic's idea of moderation as virtue.

“We want not an amalgam or compromise, but both things at the top of their energy: love and wrath both burning… I need not remind the reader that the idea of this combination is indeed central in orthodox theology.For orthodox theology has specially insisted that Christ was not a being apart from God and man, like an elf, nor yet a being half human and half not, like a centaur, but both things at once and both things thoroughly, very man and very God…"

“It is true that the historic Church has at once emphasized celibacy and emphasized the family; has at once (if one may put it so) been fiercely for having children and fiercely for not having children. It has kept them side by side like two strong colors, red and white, like the red and white on the shield of St George. It has always had a healthy hatred of pink. It hates that combination of two colors which is the feeble expedient of the philosophers. It hates that evolution of black into white which is tantamount to a dirty gray… Christianity sought in most of these cases to keep two colors coexistent but pure.”
 
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This is why Joan of Arc-- a peasant who fiercely led an army-- and Francis of Assisi-- an aristocrat who gave up his wealth and became a pacifist-- both can be saints, by the way.
 
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Hey, yo, human-kind. Nice species you got going on here. You know, uh, here's the deal: I'm all powerful and all of this stuff you see around you is mine. I made it. So, I was thinking, either you accept me as your master and, maybe, I won't do the most terrible thing I can imagine to you for all of eternity. Sound like a good deal? Enjoy your free will, feelgoodpeace.
Our free will lies in recognizing the truth or not recognizing the truth, not in changing the truth.

If we could change the truth, it wouldn't be the truth.
 
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We're treading on some shaky ground here, bro, well on our way violating non-contradiction. Mercy is the suspension of justice. It is someone not getting what they deserve.

That's the problem. The realities presented in the Bible don't match the circumstances of the aftereffects the utopia-seeking 'Enlightenment' period (18th century) gave us. In current First World society diversity, tolerance and democracy are very much uplifted, while the NT Bible itself states there will be separation between goats and sheep (while here at sherdog it's commonly argued who's the GOAT). Not to mention to be hot or cold but not lukewarm or be spitted out (i.e. choose a side don't waver in the middle). Don't forget 'the cut off the part that causes you to sin just so you can enter the kingdom of God.'

No wonder Nietzsche said "God is Dead." With the propagation of ideas like liberty, tolerance, we are all brothers, etc. it's like the situation in the era of Judges: every man did that which was right in his own eyes. When the 'right' contradicts what's in the Bible at the least hilarity ensues and at the worst bloodshed occurs.
 
To say God is violating non-contradiction is like complaining that fire isn't square.

He is merciful and he is just. He is merciful when it is right to be merciful, and he is just when it is right to be just.

To paraphrase GK Chesterton, God is red and God is white; God is not pink. He owns the perfection of every virtue in it's extreme-- he is not Artistotle or the Stoic's idea of moderation as virtue.

“We want not an amalgam or compromise, but both things at the top of their energy: love and wrath both burning… I need not remind the reader that the idea of this combination is indeed central in orthodox theology.For orthodox theology has specially insisted that Christ was not a being apart from God and man, like an elf, nor yet a being half human and half not, like a centaur, but both things at once and both things thoroughly, very man and very God…"

“It is true that the historic Church has at once emphasized celibacy and emphasized the family; has at once (if one may put it so) been fiercely for having children and fiercely for not having children. It has kept them side by side like two strong colors, red and white, like the red and white on the shield of St George. It has always had a healthy hatred of pink. It hates that combination of two colors which is the feeble expedient of the philosophers. It hates that evolution of black into white which is tantamount to a dirty gray… Christianity sought in most of these cases to keep two colors coexistent but pure.”


1 Timothy 3:2-5 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

These priests then do not measure up to leading the church of God. Reason? No prior experience. Paul said so. Black is black and white is white. No gray.
 
Our free will lies in recognizing the truth or not recognizing the truth, not in changing the truth.

If we could change the truth, it wouldn't be the truth.

Again Exodus 7:3 and King Saul's evil spirit in 1 Samuel 16:14; 18:10 and 19:9. If God Himself prevents one from recognizing truth, is it still free will?
 
Our free will lies in recognizing the truth or not recognizing the truth, not in changing the truth.

If we could change the truth, it wouldn't be the truth.

I prefer to define truth as that which comports with reality. If the God of the bible were real, I suspect the world would look a whole lot different than it does now.

Matthew 18-19: Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

God is an assertion, not truth, until demonstrated otherwise.
 
The Problems With Pope Francis’ Change in Catechism on Capital Punishment

The pope makes two main claims. The first is that capital punishment is no longer necessary in order to protect innocent lives. That’s because in his view there are ways to incarcerate violent criminals so that they can no longer pose a danger. The second is that capital punishment is, in any case, “an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person.”

The problem with the first claim is that, with all due respect to the pope, there aren’t really any good reasons to believe it. And there are several good reasons to doubt it. Let’s say developed countries have adequate means to incapacitate violent offenders short of execution. But there are large parts of the undeveloped world which do not. To insist that capital punishment is flatly “inadmissible” even in those countries is simply to put innocent lives at risk. It is ironic that the pope would recommend a sweeping policy change for the whole world that reflects what might be called a rather Eurocentric point of view.

Also, what about murderers who are already in prison for life and the danger they pose to prison guards and to other prisoners? Organized crime figures sometimes order assassinations, from prison, of people on the outside. So even in developed countries, it just isn’t the case that all murderers can be incapacitated in a way that makes them harmless.

...the teaching of Genesis 9:6 is precisely that capital punishment follows from a respect for human dignity. It says that a murderer deserves death precisely because his victim is made in God’s image. And the Catholic tradition has always taught the basic legitimacy of capital punishment. It was reaffirmed by many popes, from Innocent I to Innocent III to Pius V to Pius X to Pius XII and down to very recently. Even Pope John Paul II, who favored abolishing capital punishment, did not go as far as to declare it flatly inconsistent with human dignity. He acknowledged, in continuity with his predecessors, that in some cases capital punishment can be legitimate.

So, if Pope Francis is really saying that capital punishment is always and intrinsically evil. … Then he is, as far as the tradition is concerned, entirely on his own on this. He has no sources in Catholic tradition to appeal to. In the words he has added to the Catechism, the only authority he quotes is a speech of his own. From just last year. That’s not much to pit against two millennia of previous consistent papal teaching and the teaching of scripture.
 
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