China expanding surveillance state is a dream come true for true power and utopia

[Madmick]

Oh geez. Okay, this again.

You used that same line last time. The idea that you understand the implications of my position better than I do. I think the result is that you make these long rants respond to implications that you believe you have correctly interpreted rather than responding to what I'm actually saying.

I don't have this problem with any of the other posters I consider intelligent, so either you're honestly at a level of intelligence that is a notch above posters such as Zankou, Pan, InternetHero, etc, or you're a bit of a presumptive asshole. I'm genuinely open to either being possible, but your aggressiveness leads me toward the latter.

For example, I said there was no causal relationship between my mention of propaganda and my mention of China's safety. Your response is to ask why, then, I mentioned propaganda at all. Again, maybe you're operating at a higher level, but that seems to me like you either didn't read my comment before responding or you're not understanding what I'm saying. Not all comments in a post must relate to the same point.

If a third party can weigh in on this could help translate, I'd appreciate it.

It's hard to respond to "what you're actually saying" when all that you're actually saying is an objection that I don't understand what you're actually saying.

The thrust of my argument is sufficiently direct, and relevant.

 

[Leagon]

The problems are numerical, but I honestly don't think that it's going to hurt any of us if we lean towards that side a little bit more than we have in recent times.

Just never be fooled into thinking that being part of a rigged system, designated for others to win, is somehow the measure of "being a man" or having freedom. I'm not here to defend robber-baron capitalism. Too long, have we allowed ourselves to sully the ideal of freedom, by having it represented by the lowest kind of scammers and conmen, with no moral base. A man who works 10 hours a day, to struggle to put a living on his table, is not being a "man". He's just being fucked over.

It is making many people yearn for the other kind of freedom, one where they'll be taken "care of". Unfortunately.

Fair.

I think this dilemma is well illustrated by the office of the presidency. Arguably the most powerful man in the world, but he has to live where he is told, can't leave home without a guardian, can't use the phone he wants, can't say whatever he wants.

My position is that the feminine model of freedom is the more realistic because it understands that power and agency aren't necessarily freeing. The only free people are those with no responsibility. Similarly, the less one is responsible for some things, the more they are responsible for others.

Evolutionarily, women are responsible for the continued survival of the species in a very direct way. That is more responsibility than any man can have. I think they understand that you cannot be responsible for the big things and succeed if you're still responsible for the small things. If Elon Musk had to get his own water each day and teach his kids math and do his own laundry and cook his own meals, he wouldn't have time to dream up rockets. There's a reason wealthy people hire others to take care of the minutiae for them. There's also a reason women marry men who can provide for them. Imo, it's the same reason.

 

[TheGreatA]

Fair.

I think this dilemma is well illustrated by the office of the presidency. Arguably the most powerful man in the world, but he has to live where he is told, can't leave home without a guardian, can't use the phone he wants, can't say whatever he wants.

My position is that the feminine model of freedom is the more realistic because it understands that power and agency aren't necessarily freeing. The only free people are those with no responsibility. Similarly, the less one is responsible for some things, the more they are responsible for others.

Evolutionarily, women are responsible for the continued survival of the species in a very direct way. That is more responsibility than any man can have. I think they understand that you cannot be responsible for the big things and succeed if you're still responsible for the small things. If Elon Musk had to get his own water each day and teach his kids math and do his own laundry and cook his own meals, he wouldn't have time to dream up rockets. There's a reason wealthy people hire others to take care of the minutiae for them. There's also a reason women marry men who can provide for them. Imo, it's the same reason.

None of that means that they necessarily live "irresponsibly" though. Musk still dreams up rockets. The wealthy man still has to gather his wealth. The woman still has to fulfill her duties, to her husband.

The problems occur when Musk no longer has to dream up rockets, when the wealthy man no longer has to gather his wealth, and when the woman no longer has to fulfill her duties. That is the kind of freedom that we should not necessarily yearn for. That is the kind of freedom which in truth, is nothing but a mirage. To be given something, without giving something back, it is a ludicrous idea. There is no such a thing as "no responsibility". It only means that the responsibility has been delegated to others, rendering them your servants, or even worse, assumed by others, to take control of your life.

To trade responsibilities in order to assume other responsibilities, there is nothing inherently wrong with that. The balance of power and dependence between people still remains intact.

The idea that women are any more directly responsible for the survival of our species, than the men, is a foolishly poetic ideal, often parroted by romantics. It is the men, in truth, that give birth to "life" where there is none, while women serve as the containers of that life energy, injected to them by the male. Both are very much responsible for our continued survival, and neither can hope to compromise from that responsibility.

 

[Leagon]

None of that means that they necessarily live "irresponsibly" though. Musk still dreams up rockets. The wealthy man still has to gather his wealth. The woman still has to fulfill her duties, to her husband.

The problems occur when Musk no longer has to dream up rockets, when the wealthy man no longer has to gather his wealth, and when the woman no longer has to fulfill her duties. That is the kind of freedom that we should not necessarily yearn for. That is the kind of freedom which in truth, is nothing but a mirage. To be given something, without giving something back, it is a ludicrous idea. There is no such a thing as "no responsibility". It only means that the responsibility has been delegated to others, rendering them your servants, or even worse, assumed by others, to take control of your life.

To trade responsibilities in order to assume other responsibilities, there is nothing inherently wrong with that. The balance of power and dependence between people still remains intact.

The idea that women are any more directly responsible for the survival of our species, than the men, is a foolishly poetic ideal, often parroted by romantics. It is the men, in truth, that give birth to "life" where there is none, while women serve as the containers of that life energy, injected to them by the male. Both are very much responsible for our continued survival, and neither can hope to compromise from that responsibility.

I'll start from the bottom.

Men for sure play a role in survival, but women do far, far more of the work. I don't think there's anything romantic about that. Once the woman is pregnant, the man can literally drop dead and the baby can still be born and live a healthy life.

The rest of it I kind of agree with. Where we disagree is that I don't think most people would ever exchange responsibility for no responsibility. I think most people who lose their lesser responsibilities end up taking greater responsibilities, either through self motivation or duty to others. Imo, the lazy bums are outliers. I went to school with a lot of very wealthy kids. Almost all of them were accomplishing amazing things that, as a student who had to pay his way through college, would be difficult for me to pull off. Very few were just bumming around.

 

[SaiWa]

Are they not forcing the installation of that app? Are they not developing this surveillance biometric? Furthermore, is there some sort of special knowledge about the veracity of these things gleaned by strolling through a park at night in the middle of some Chinese city?

At least they're honest and direct about it. You think our government (US) doesn't spy on its citizens using all resources available whenever it wants or desires?... if so I got a bridge I want to sell you.. real cheap and hardly used.. lol

 

[Ruprecht]

I met with a Falun Gong practitioner in undergrad and heard his story several years before I went to China.

After living there, I don't doubt the horrors he went through, but I do have a much better understanding of the climate he was operating in and know that he likely wasn't as innocent as he portrayed himself or his beliefs. While it is very satisfying to believe that other regimes just brutalize mass swaths of innocent people for no reason, it is more complex than that.

Edit: Perhaps this is a racial thing. Most of the white people I met in China really hated it, whereas most of the black and hispanic people I met really appreciated it (obviously with plenty of exceptions in both camps). The idea of persecution of the underprivileged is sort of a fact of life for most underprivileged people and I think it's primarily people in positions of relative dominance that like to argue about the degrees of misfortune that such people experience. The actual lived experience, though, offers different insight.

I've spent no time in mainland China myself, and I'm sure the negative aspects I've heard are amplified by the fact that I'm mostly hearing from migrants and Missionaries, but maintaining authoritarian rule is a pretty clear reason.
I mean sure, I get a very different description of China from wealthy Chinese students studying here than I do from Uyghur migrants, Falun Gong practitioners and Chinese Christians. Likewise from a couple of friends that lived in China working for Mercedes and tech import/export.
Most of the Students were seemingly unaware of their Government's censorship, and blamed the brutal crackdown on Falun Gong on the idea that they reject professional medicine (which the practitioners deny, and tellingly there's no similar crackdown on traditional medicine practitioners).
I'm more likely to chalk the discrepancies in these accounts to ignorance rather than "western propaganda".

 

[Leagon]

I've spent no time in mainland China myself, and I'm sure the negative aspects I've heard are amplified by the fact that I'm mostly hearing from migrants and Missionaries, but maintaining authoritarian rule is a pretty clear reason.
I mean sure, I get a very different description of China from wealthy Chinese students studying here than I do from Uyghur migrants, Falun Gong practitioners and Chinese Christians. Likewise from a couple of friends that lived in China working for Mercedes and tech import/export.
Most of the Students were seemingly unaware of their Government's censorship, and blamed the brutal crackdown on Falun Gong on the idea that they reject professional medicine (which the practitioners deny, and tellingly there's no similar crackdown on traditional medicine practitioners).
I'm more likely to chalk the discrepancies in these accounts to ignorance rather than "western propaganda".

It doesn't have to be either/or. Your description above represents exposure to a far wider swath of Chinese society than most Westerners get, wouldn't you agree?

My point is more about the Chinese middle class. I think most Americans are unaware that such a thing even exists. They seem to think that China is mainly just a government with a bunch of human subjects it lords over. That seems more propaganda-driven.

But then they see millions of Chinese traveling all over their countries every year, but it never occurs to them that in order to travel across the world for leisure, these people must have quite a bit of stored money and expendable time that the average American for damn sure doesn't have. They don't examine the implications of that. Maybe this is where ignorance plays a bigger role.

 

[Ruprecht]

It doesn't have to be either/or. Your description above represents exposure to a far wider swath of Chinese society than most Westerners get, wouldn't you agree?

My point is more about the Chinese middle class. I think most Americans are unaware that such a thing even exists. They seem to think that China is mainly just a government with a bunch of human subjects it lords over. That seems more propaganda-driven.

But then they see millions of Chinese traveling all over the countries every year, but it never occurs to them that in order to travel across the world for leisure, these people must have quiet a bit of stored money and expendable time that the average American for damn sure doesn't have. They don't examine the implications of that. Maybe this is where ignorance plays a bigger role.

Well, things might be different in the US, but we have a lot of Chinese here. Both as migrants and temporarily as students and workers.
China is also our largest economic partner by a considerable measure.
The vast majority of those Chinese represent a small segment of the Chinese population though, their upper middle to upper class. While the growth of their middle class and economic transformation has been incredible (they're almost entirely responsible for halving the number of people in the world living in poverty), and along a completely different path than industrialisation in other countries, that doesn't change the extremely authoritarian nature of their Government and it's abuses.
Of course judging from what I read here, including about public health systems, gun control and "Eurabia", it does seem like Americans are much more given to dystopian fantasies about other nations. So perhaps you're right about their misconceptions of China.
Just because China isn't some Orwellian nightmare, shouldn't downplay it's authoritarian nature though.
It's much the same with Singapore, although without most of China's flagrant human rights abuses and rural poverty. Nice place to visit, very high standard of living.
Still a totalitarian shopping mall.

 

[ShinkanPo]

Well, things might be different in the US, but we have a lot of Chinese here. Both as migrants and temporarily as students and workers.
China is also our largest economic partner by a considerable measure.
The vast majority of those Chinese represent a small segment of the Chinese population though, their upper middle to upper class. While the growth of their middle class and economic transformation has been incredible (they're almost entirely responsible for halving the number of people in the world living in poverty), and along a completely different path than industrialisation in other countries, that doesn't change the extremely authoritarian nature of their Government and it's abuses.
Of course judging from what I read here, including about public health systems, gun control and "Eurabia", it does seem like Americans are much more given to dystopian fantasies about other nations. So perhaps you're right about their misconceptions of China.
Just because China isn't some Orwellian nightmare, shouldn't downplay it's authoritarian nature though.
It's much the same with Singapore, although without most of China's flagrant human rights abuses and rural poverty. Nice place to visit, very high standard of living.
Still a totalitarian shopping mall.

Are chewing gum also banned in West Malaysia? Or only in Singapore? From what I remember only Singapore bans chewies and smokes.

 

[Ruprecht]

Are chewing gum also banned in West Malaysia? Or only in Singapore? From what I remember only Singapore bans chewies and smokes.

Singapore bans a lot of things, and more importantly actually enforces those bans. You might notice how clean and orderly things are if you stop over on a flight, but spend a bit more time there and the level of overbearing "nanny state" micromanagement becomes more obvious (and not just because the whole place feels relentlessly "G" rated).

 

[ShinkanPo]

Singapore bans a lot of things, and more importantly actually enforces those bans. You might notice how clean and orderly things are if you stop over on a flight, but spend a bit more time there and the level of overbearing "nanny state" micromanagement becomes more obvious (and not just because the whole place feels relentlessly "G" rated).

Which is more fun Malaysia or Singapore? Singapore has the big attractions like Universal Studios and some fancy hotels and stuff but it seems its much more difficult to have a house or some club party there than KL. Because of all the Banned things,.

I guess Singapore is leading in Theme Parks right now with UNI, but Malaysia has the LEGO park in Johor.

 

[Ruprecht]

Which is more fun Malaysia or Singapore? Singapore has the big attractions like Universal Studios and some fancy hotels and stuff but it seems its much more difficult to have a house or some club party there than KL. Because of all the Banned things,.

I guess Singapore is leading in Theme Parks right now with UNI, but Malaysia has the LEGO park in Johor.

Well... it depends on what you like. If you like shopping Singapore might be your bag. My idea of fun usually involves getting out of the city though.
To be honest, although it's clearly much, much better for Malaysians now, I actually preferred Malaysia back in the '80s when it wasn't so developed.
Where I lived used to be rural jungle. Now there's a golf course and some hideous neo-Tudor resort.

 

[ShinkanPo]

Well... it depends on what you like. If you like shopping Singapore might be your bag. My idea of fun usually involves getting out of the city though.
To be honest, although it's clearly much, much better for Malaysians now, I actually preferred Malaysia back in the '80s when it wasn't so developed.
Where I lived used to be rural jungle. Now there's a golf course and some hideous neo-Tudor resort.

When I visited Malaysia I never saw the Thirdworldy aspects of KL, even though I know some slums and some not so "developed" areas exists but it seems modern KL and Selangore have been developed in a way that if you are traveling from KLIA2 going to KLCC you will not be able to see the less affluent areas of the city. I was quite impressed as I thought KL will be like just a better version of Manila but when I was there it just felt they are like way ahead.

 

[Leagon]

Well, things might be different in the US, but we have a lot of Chinese here. Both as migrants and temporarily as students and workers.
China is also our largest economic partner by a considerable measure.
The vast majority of those Chinese represent a small segment of the Chinese population though, their upper middle to upper class. While the growth of their middle class and economic transformation has been incredible (they're almost entirely responsible for halving the number of people in the world living in poverty), and along a completely different path than industrialisation in other countries, that doesn't change the extremely authoritarian nature of their Government and it's abuses.
Of course judging from what I read here, including about public health systems, gun control and "Eurabia", it does seem like Americans are much more given to dystopian fantasies about other nations. So perhaps you're right about their misconceptions of China.
Just because China isn't some Orwellian nightmare, shouldn't downplay it's authoritarian nature though.
It's much the same with Singapore, although without most of China's flagrant human rights abuses and rural poverty. Nice place to visit, very high standard of living.
Still a totalitarian shopping mall.

Lol. Totalitarian shopping mall is a great descriptor.

I think what you've said is fair. It isn't the nightmare many Westerners characterize it as, but it's not spotless. The only reason I don't vocally condemn the authoritarianism is because I think it is a necessary part of their system. I imagine/hope that conditions will change in a way that allows them to adopt more lenient measures, but I think they're playing their hand very intelligently in the mean time and being compassionate where they feel they can (such as massive reduction/balancing of carbon emissions).

I also maintain that aspects of their system will be adopted by Western nations in the coming decades. Western progressives have already begun to prioritize security over freedom. College students across America generally reject freedom of speech. Additionally, the populist backlash we've seen across Europe and the US had the Chinese chuckling over the merits of democracy. In the West, we have this contradiction in that we believe people are generally stupid, but also believe that democracy is a very smart system. It doesn't make much sense and I think that, when we reckon with that, we'll see that the Chinese have reconciled that in a way we can glean some insight from.

 

[Leagon]

Well... it depends on what you like. If you like shopping Singapore might be your bag. My idea of fun usually involves getting out of the city though.
To be honest, although it's clearly much, much better for Malaysians now, I actually preferred Malaysia back in the '80s when it wasn't so developed.
Where I lived used to be rural jungle. Now there's a golf course and some hideous neo-Tudor resort.

Malaysia is my favorite place I've been to. For a significant international city, KL is super relaxed. Very clean, friendly people, incredible food. If I could find a good job there, I think I'd move back.

Are you from there?

 

[Ruprecht]

Malaysia is my favorite place I've been to. For a significant international city, KL is super relaxed. Very clean, friendly people, incredible food. If I could find a good job there, I think I'd move back.

Are you from there?

No, I was born in Australia, but lived there for a while in the '80s, and been back a bit. I have an adopted brother and sister from Malaysia (Tamil) and an improbable fondness for durian. Going back after nearly a decade the massive changes were something of a shock, and that's continued. I've had this almost decadal slideshow of the massive development. A huge difference from the Kampungs, tin mining and colonial tea fields of the early '80s. The population growth in KL is ridiculous, endless suburban sprawl.

 

[Leagon]

No, I was born in Australia, but lived there for a while in the '80s, and been back a bit. I have an adopted brother and sister from Malaysia (Tamil) and an improbable fondness for durian. Going back after nearly a decade the massive changes were something of a shock, and that's continued. I've had this almost decadal slideshow of the massive development. A huge difference from the Kampungs, tin mining and colonial tea fields of the early '80s. The population growth in KL is ridiculous, endless suburban sprawl.

I got out to the Cameron Highlands, which were gorgeous. If most of the country used to be more like that, I can only imagine the shock. That also explains why KL feels less like a city than any city I've been to. I remember walking around at 3pm and not seeing another person out on the street. It was insane. Makes sense if they've had rapid, sudden growth, though. People are still living like it's a much smaller town.

Also, durian is fuggin gross, dude. It tastes exactly like it smells.

 

[Kframe]

This is really what I'm arguing against.

Imagine if you had never been to America and only read the stories about police violence and NSA surveillance. Would that at all capture what it's like to live in America?

I rarely saw police in China. Even in instances when police were called, they often declined to settle any private matters. If anything, the police are far less involved in life there than they are in America.

Their emphasis over there is to ensure the stability of the society. Of course that is open to abusive interpretation, but your personal freedoms are generally limitless until they become something that is viewed as politcally or morally corrosive.

One time police caught me without my passport. I had no evidence that I was in the country legally. They told me to make sure I have it on me and said they would check again. They left. Never came back. It was overall a pretty amicable conversation.

Do you know how immigration police treat potentially illegal citizens in America?

When you think of all the bad things that happen in America, think also about the far, far more numerous good things that happen. There are millions of good interactions with police to every bad one.

It's the same in China. Most people in Tibet just go about their day. I wore my cross openly and there were Catholic meet ups in public all the time, even though the government is at odds woth the Vatican. The bad events are, in most situations, the exception, not the rule.

Do you have any substantial proof of this?

 

[Leagon]

Do you have any substantial proof of this?

Substantial proof of what? That I rarely saw police? That the immigration police treated me well? That in a country of 1.7 billion people, the bad things you read are rare events? That most people in Tibet go about their lives with little infringement?

Do you have proof that going to a bar in America isn't a fearful experience because of gun prevalence? Do you have proof that black people in America don't feel targeted by police? Do you have proof that the country doesn't smell dude to the sweat of all the obese people?

I'm not beibg facetious. These are all things I've had to address from Chinese people. I'm not sure what kind of proof I could provide other thab my own experiences. You don't have to believe me.

 

[waiguoren]

I use Chinese social media daily and say whatever the fuck I want. You think the government cares? They have 1.7 billion people to police. Unless you're planning a revolution, they don't have time.

Do you post in Chinese or in English?

Try posting on 微博 (the dominant Twitter clone) about 六四事件 or 文革 or 劉曉波 or 習小小 or 达赖 or any other of literally hundreds of "sensitive topics" in a way that the Communist Party is opposed to. Watch how quickly your posts get deleted.

Google has been blocked for nearly a decade now. Try using 百度 (the dominant search engine) to search for the name of the current PRC Chairman: 習進平. Try finding a negative search result about him. I'll bet you can literally scroll through 1000s of results without finding one. What does that mean to you?

That's irrelevant to me and the vast majority of people. Most people don't care about political dissent.

If political dissent is irrelevant to you, why are you writing about it?

"Unless you're planning a revolution, they don't have time"

This statement is patently false. The Chinese state censors millions of online posts every day even though they don't concern "revolution".