China-millions of donkeys bashed to death with sledge hammers

It's darker than you think.

I remember a Cantonese joke about a villager who came back to the village wailing that another villager's wife was killed by lightening.

It turned out he was wrong, and that the one killed by lightening was not the man's wife, so all the other villagers beat and ridiculed him.

Hilarious right? But what did not occur to the joke teller, and would not occur to other Chinese is... what about the other dead woman?

The background thought is "we don't know her, she doesn't matter."

The girl who told me the joke was incredibly intelligent, gifted in language, and tried very hard to understand Western ideas, but the fact the joke completely omitted the death of an outsider mattering was telling and she was deeply disturbed.

The dead woman simply did not matter, not as a thought, nor as an afterthought. She was nothing but a humorous device.



That's just the beginning. The religious, philosophical, and legal principles of the West may have their problems, flaws, and even defects, but, things like this are reason to understand we have come a long way, and that those ideas and the history behind them should be very valuable to us.

Before this post from you I had typed that there was a saying in Chinese culture about not treating strangers with compassion and empathy because those are traits reserved for family and friends/people you know. I couldn't remember the details of the saying so didn't include it in my last post. You have essentially said the same with the joke you recal.
 
Yeah this is what I have heard of the Chinese. They lack empathy and compassion, are indifferent and see such issues in an amoral sense. For them an animal is just another resource in nature, they aren't being cruel because they get off on being sadistic, they just don't even consider the pain the animal undergoes. Everything in life is about self interest and there is no need to be kind unless it benefits one.

I don't think I could express something close to the truth without expending a whole, whole lot of words. The differences in how we view life and what matters in life are vast.

In how we view power, social responsibility, basic human kindness, or ... deja view, I feel like I have posted this before. No sarcasm, feels weird man!

The Mainland of China is also very diverse being a large and storied country, there are all types of people, many bad, many good, many just going by in life... in some ways they get a few rules of life we are trying to forget, but in others, well to say there are problems is being kind in my opinion.



The below is just my feelings, not grounded in as of yet verifiable knowledge:

As for sadism, that is a whole other topic. We all have sadism inside of us, and Chinese, Japanese, and Korean cultures through various stories, ideas, and idioms are easier to be "in touch" with cruelty. Whether we mean state torture or S&M, the human, or perhaps animal reasons these impulses exist are better understood, for better or worse... maybe worse, I'm not sure.

That is my theory anyway from a long, long line of experience, take for what it is worth.
 
I dont really know much about Confucius. Do you have a source for that?
@InternetHero would be better at providing the source / explaining the situation.

The Confusious part is something I recal from reading and hearing people say. I don't know the exact diction of the saying so it would take me forever to google it. I just recal that people who were familiar with Chinese culture stating that Confusion values goes a long way towards their lack of empathy.
 
Before this post from you I had typed that there was a saying in Chinese culture about not treating strangers with compassion and empathy because those are traits reserved for family and friends/people you know. I couldn't remember the details of the saying so didn't include it in my last post. You have essentially said the same with the joke you recal.

True, true

Hmm.

This is something else to consider the complication.

English: A language of action, humans are the center of things, and the language is excellent for precision and describing the world in terms of three dimensions. Who, what, where, when, why, and how can be easily constructed with an immense number of words.

Chinese: A language of deliberation, the center of things involves a multitude of relationships to other people and objects, and the language is excellent for symbols (the image of the character) and multiple abstract meanings in a world of many dimensions.

English: Great for stories because you can capture what something "means" and express your thoughts "clearly" as language goes.

Chinese: Great for poetry because you can capture many meanings with a few words, or rather, images.

English: The world can be defined down to near absolutes.

Chinese: The world can be expanded to near infinity.

Fun stuff...
 
@InternetHero would be better at providing the source / explaining the situation.

The Confusious part is something I recal from reading and hearing people say. I don't know the exact diction of the saying so it would take me forever to google it. I just recal that people who were familiar with Chinese culture stating that Confusion values goes a long way towards their lack of empathy.

From my brief skimming on Confucius, shu which means empathy is suppose to be one of the central tenets.

The other half of Confucius’ “single thread” is the notion of shu(empathy). The importance of this virtue in Confucius’ moral philosophy can also be seen in another exchange he had with a student. When asked to give one word that can serve as the guiding principle for one’s entire life, Confucius replied that it is “shu”, and further elaborated: “Do not impose upon others what you yourself do not desire.” ... How does this notion of shu (empathy) fit into Confucius’ moral hierarchy, and how does it link up with the notion of (loyalty) to constitute his unifying principle? As explained earlier, in this moral hierarchy individuals are interconnected in a social web that includes multilayers of relationships. One needs to be loyal to the different roles one plays relative to the other person. Now with zhongshu(empathy), one can also extend oneself to appreciate what the other person in the opposite role would desire. For example, a father can do his best as a father to edify his son. But if he remembers how much he resented his father’s dictatorship, then he should modify his discipline and not impose too much restraint on his son. ... [Similarly,] if we do not wish our family members to be harmed, then we should not harm any stranger who is also a family member to someone else.

http://bhoffert.faculty.noctrl.edu/hst330/03.confucius.html
 
From my brief skimming on Confucius, shu which means empathy is suppose to be one of the central tenets.

The other half of Confucius’ “single thread” is the notion of shu(empathy). The importance of this virtue in Confucius’ moral philosophy can also be seen in another exchange he had with a student. When asked to give one word that can serve as the guiding principle for one’s entire life, Confucius replied that it is “shu”, and further elaborated: “Do not impose upon others what you yourself do not desire.” ... How does this notion of shu (empathy) fit into Confucius’ moral hierarchy, and how does it link up with the notion of (loyalty) to constitute his unifying principle? As explained earlier, in this moral hierarchy individuals are interconnected in a social web that includes multilayers of relationships. One needs to be loyal to the different roles one plays relative to the other person. Now with zhongshu(empathy), one can also extend oneself to appreciate what the other person in the opposite role would desire. For example, a father can do his best as a father to edify his son. But if he remembers how much he resented his father’s dictatorship, then he should modify his discipline and not impose too much restraint on his son. ... [Similarly,] if we do not wish our family members to be harmed, then we should not harm any stranger who is also a family member to someone else.

http://bhoffert.faculty.noctrl.edu/hst330/03.confucius.html

You are opening a Pandora's Box of understanding.

I need to get some sleep, but will explain very briefly that what Confucius meant was shu as a sense of "harmony." IE do not trouble the village or your family or your relationships with your own problems.

As well, these should be applied to guanxi 关系, your personal relationships.

If you want to know more about the order of things, check out Confucian ideas about hierarchies

Father to son, wife to husband, and so on.

In Confucianism all relationships are inherently unequal but by knowing your relationship you can also know you place and therefore... harmony.
 
I think the idea that Christian values is in great part responsible for the creation of the concept of human rights and animal rights is absolutely correct. Many countries these days adhere to the idea, only because they took it on just like they took on other successful aspects of our culture: democracy, the capitalist economic system, science and technology, etc. The west sets the tune.
 
But he has a point.

Dogs matter so much because we personified them and they aided our way of life for a long, long time.

The ties are emotional like so many things in life.

I for one love dogs, but, make no mistake a dog left to the wilds without human guidance is fundamentally immoral as the kill or be killed state of nature.

I think we should be kind to all life, because humanity, and perhaps dolphins and apes can understand something besides pitiless cruelty, but again that is part of being a modern human who fought endless oppression and murder to be free to express these ideas.

That is not history, nor nature, we have a unique and wonderful existence compared to the dark that came before. Shame we do not value modern life more.

I personally think he's trying to bash the love for dogs mentality seen in the West by saying most are dumb animals and that we shouldn't judge another culture. He's defending a shitty practice. I have a feeling he's doing it simply because they are Chinese. The guy lives in an area with a lot Chinese immigrants.

I've had too many strange experiences with so many different dogs. There is something special about them. They can feel and appreciate the love and seek it. They will think about and miss certain individuals. They're extremely sensitive and get jealous too. I've seen a dog start crying and then start nipping another dog because he was getting all the attention and love.

The same can be said about a human too. Leave a human in the wilds and he'll kill anything that can be eaten in order to survive.

We should be kind to life but you know there's only so much a handful of people can do.
 
I think you're being a bit oversensitive here. I'm probably what you'd call an animal lover and the Asian practice of killing dogs and cats (quite inhumanely generally) and eating them bothers me quite a bit.

I also have to recognize that I'm a bit of a hypocrite since I love eating meat. I might try to tend towards meat from animals treated as humanely as possible but it really is odd when you think about it that an animal's life can be valued by how appealing they are as pets. That's all @AnGrYcRoW is saying and I think he's right.

EDIT:Looks like @InternetHero beat me to it. Well said bud.

When I look at everything that comes from him yeah, to me it's revolting.

There's no reason why you can't criticise the treatment of the animals we eat and criticise the treatment of animals that are considered man's best friend. Certain animals have a role to play. I don't think a cat or a dog should be playing the same role as a cow, pig, sheep, donkey, chicken etc.
 
Chian isn't fully developed/industrialized and the IQ average is on par with America.

I'd like to know how the "IQ test" is conducted in China. Especially since they are somewhat open about cheating on tests, pro-plagiarism, and just blatantly copy of each other's papers in class.
 
I heard it has something to do with Mao destroying Chinese culture, morals and values. When you starve 3 generation, they'll be greedy, selfish and have no empathy.

There's no doubt the Chinese people have been severely mind fucked.

Populations everywhere being manipulated so badly.
 
I personally think he's trying to bash the love for dogs mentality seen in the West by saying most are dumb animals and that we shouldn't judge another culture. He's defending a shitty practice. I have a feeling he's doing it simply because they are Chinese. The guy lives in an area with a lot Chinese immigrants.

I've had too many strange experiences with so many different dogs. There is something special about them. They can feel and appreciate the love and seek it. They will think about and miss certain individuals. They're extremely sensitive and get jealous too. I've seen a dog start crying and then start nipping another dog because he was getting all the attention and love.

The same can be said about a human too. Leave a human in the wilds and he'll kill anything that can be eaten in order to survive.

We should be kind to life but you know there's only so much a handful of people can do.
I have a dog , and had a cat years ago. Both animals can display empathy and sadness. They aren't just being friendly because they need a meal, because they get meals no matter what they do. Dogs have been known to be extremly depressed when abandoned, or when family members leave for days or months on end.
 
When I look at everything that comes from him yeah, to me it's revolting.

There's no reason why you can't criticise the treatment of the animals we eat and criticise the treatment of animals that are considered man's best friend. Certain animals have a role to play. I don't think a cat or a dog should be playing the same role as a cow, pig, sheep, donkey, chicken etc.
Well it seems like there's some history involved between he and you so I can't comment on that.

Look, it's not like I feel differently than you regarding my attitude towards cats and dogs vs. cows pigs etc. but I have to accept as I think you should that there's a certain degree of moral relativism and hypocrisy involved in that. Why does the suffering of one animal mean more than another just because of it's symbiotic/emotional connection with humans? It's just an interesting thought I think. No antagonism with you intended.
 
Look, it's not like I feel differently than you regarding my attitude towards cats and dogs vs. cows pigs etc. but I have to accept as I think you should that there's a certain degree of moral relativism and hypocrisy involved in that. Why does the suffering of one animal mean more than another just because of it's symbiotic/emotional connection with humans? It's just an interesting thought I think. No antagonism with you intended.

The suffering of farm animals shouldn't prevent us from condemning this type of animal consumption in my opinion. I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread wants both farm animals and cats and dogs to be treated much better. Cats and dogs should only be eaten under extreme circumstances.

As for people having a more sense of urgency about dogs and cats, I think the reason is because a lot of people have spent time with them and understand how sensitive they can be. People don't really interact with farm animals and I'm sure if they were bombarded with horrible images by the media something would be done.
 
Not even going to read, animal abuse makes me sick, I would Happily end the lives of any animal abusers...
 
I have a dog , and had a cat years ago. Both animals can display empathy and sadness. They aren't just being friendly because they need a meal, because they get meals no matter what they do. Dogs have been known to be extremly depressed when abandoned, or when family members leave for days or months on end.
Anyone who says otherwise is lying or doesnt have adequate abilities in perception.
 
Our western culture has a real hard time with facing how we treat pigs, cows and other big money animals.
 
The suffering of farm animals shouldn't prevent us from condemning this type of animal consumption in my opinion. I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread wants both farm animals and cats and dogs to be treated much better. Cats and dogs should only be eaten under extreme circumstances.

As for people having a more sense of urgency about dogs and cats, I think the reason is because a lot of people have spent time with them and understand how sensitive they can be. People don't really interact with farm animals and I'm sure if they were bombarded with horrible images by the media something would be done.
I have no issue with any of this. I'm just acknowledging the ethical conundrum inherent in loving animals I consider partners and enjoying consuming other animals as food.

This was clearer I think when I grew up country and had a more 1 on 1 relationship with the animals me (or my dad or brother) killed, cleaned, cooked and ate. At least then you had to look your prey in the eye. These days it's just a juicy piece of meat in a shiny package, so easy to stay in denial about where it came from.

I don't think we're really that far apart on this. It's a matter of degree and an interesting matter for discussion.
 
That's the standard way of slaughtering animals in a lot of places.
Actually, a sledgehammer is pretty high tech.




As long as the wood is heavy enough, and they crush the skull. A captive bolt piston is aiming to do the same thing.
 
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