Cholesterol and Saturated Fat Myths Addressed Here

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Some types of saturated fat (such as palmitic acid) can increase LDL. Absolutely, and I don't think anyone would argue with this.

Are you serious? The first link you posted in this thread claims LDL has no role in heart disease, and when I pointed out how ridiculous that was, half the people in the thread tried to argue the point.
 
Are you serious? The first link you posted in this thread claims LDL has no role in heart disease, and when I pointed out how ridiculous that was, half the people in the thread tried to argue the point.

You have obviously not that whole article. It goes into detail about LDL, particularly VLDL.

EDIT: This is pasted from the first page of the link you say claims "LDL has no role in heart disease."

"A potential causative role in atherosclerosis and heart disease has indeed been detected for oxidized LDL, but this form of LDL shows no correlation with serum levels of native LDL..."
 
How stupid is that?

Not very.

This is what I've seen from you in this thread:
1) You didn't know anything about the origins or history of the "lipid theory,"

Like I said earlier, you seldom hear "lipid hypothesis" outside conspiracy theory groups. I would say I'm pretty familiar with the current understanding of atherosclerosis and the role lipids play in plaque formation, which is something you demonstratively knew little about before the beginning of this thread. And yes, I admitted unfamiliarity with all the details of the original lipid hypothesis, as it was postulated probably a good hundred years before I was born. I doubt you know much about it either, especially considering you don't know much about the current understanding of it.

you failed to clarify to others exactly what you were disagreeing about (actually this was mostly in the egg yolk thread).

I thought I was fairly clear. Is there anything you would like me to clarify?

4) You go an extra illogical step further to say that we're ignorant for even attempting to increase our knowledge on the subject, implying that scientific inquiry is something only available to the chosen few with titles after their names.

I'm saying they're the best equipped to draw conclusions.

5) You revel in your own imposed ignorance and whacked-out sociological (and anti-science) view of how science should be conducted, somehow turning your abstention from trying to learn into an intellectual virtue.

What exactly do you think I'm ignorant about? This should be good. I'm not anti-research. I just favor learning in a more traditional fashion. It usually leads to better results. :)
 
You have obviously not that whole article. It goes into detail about LDL, particularly VLDL.

EDIT: This is pasted from the first page of the link you say claims "LDL has no role in heart disease."

"A potential causative role in atherosclerosis and heart disease has indeed been detected for oxidized LDL, but this form of LDL shows no correlation with serum levels of native LDL..."

The entire article is ridiculous.
 
Not very.



Like I said earlier, you seldom hear "lipid hypothesis" outside conspiracy theory groups. I would say I'm pretty familiar with the current understanding of atherosclerosis and the role lipids play in plaque formation, which is something you demonstratively knew little about before the beginning of this thread. And yes, I admitted unfamiliarity with all the details of the original lipid hypothesis, as it was postulated probably a good hundred years before I was born. I doubt you know much about it either, especially considering you don't know much about the current understanding of it.

It's called the lipid hypothesis by conspiracy theorists and supporters alike because that's the name of the theory. Scientific theories have names so people know what other people are talking about. Have you heard it called anything else?

Also how do you know what I knew or didn't know before this thread was created? If you're unfamiliar with the original lipid hypothesis then don't comment when people who do know about it are talking about it. Especially don't call them conspiracy theorists because it was your first inclination to do so. Face it, you were arrogant and jumped to stupid conclusions about the quality and method of discourse here and now you've retreated to neutering your argument to the point where it had nothing to do with the original discussion.


I thought I was fairly clear. Is there anything you would like me to clarify?

Yes. When we talk about the myths concerning cholesterol and saturated fat in regards to the original lipid hypothesis why do you constantly introduce new concepts like inflammation and LDL as a defense for the hypothesis when they are clearly a refutation of it?

I'm saying they're the best equipped to draw conclusions.

I think they'd more than likely come up with the better conclusions as opposed to your average layman. But if you want to be precise: the person who is best equipped to draw the conclusions is the person who has the best analysis and evidence on his side, regardless of credentials or background. Can you disagree with that last statement?

But you're not content to just say that experts are likely the best equipped. You go further to say that only these people SHOULD be worried about adding to the understanding of science, and that non-experts that attempt to do so are either arrogant or ignorant. Then you take some sort of condescending tone in asserting not participating in discourse is somehow a much more clever strategy.


What exactly do you think I'm ignorant about? This should be good. I'm not anti-research. I just favor learning in a more traditional fashion. It usually leads to better results. :)

You're ignorant about your own ignorance, and about the ignorance of scientific community itself when it comes to this particular topic (and this most likely means you take the same approach to other topics). An adherence to tradition and the status quo doesn't lead to better results in science. Skepticism and an unrelenting desire to get things right is what leads to better results in science. Richard Feynman can probably explain this idea to you better than I can.


It's damn hard work getting to a point where you can 'know' something in science. The original arguments for the lipid hypothesis were based on shitty science and yet everybody accepted it as dogma. Through decades of research and inquiry, the scientific community has advanced the field to where we can have a rough understanding about the actual underlying mechanisms involved.

What these people responsible for advancing the science probably all had in common was that they didn't have the same uninquisitiveness and deference to authority as you display.
 
Not very.



Like I said earlier, you seldom hear "lipid hypothesis" outside conspiracy theory groups. I would say I'm pretty familiar with the current understanding of atherosclerosis and the role lipids play in plaque formation, which is something you demonstratively knew little about before the beginning of this thread. And yes, I admitted unfamiliarity with all the details of the original lipid hypothesis, as it was postulated probably a good hundred years before I was born. I doubt you know much about it either, especially considering you don't know much about the current understanding of it.



I thought I was fairly clear. Is there anything you would like me to clarify?



I'm saying they're the best equipped to draw conclusions.



What exactly do you think I'm ignorant about? This should be good. I'm not anti-research. I just favor learning in a more traditional fashion. It usually leads to better results. :)


Pff didn't you hear? Harvard Medical School proved saturated fat isn't bad. Who are you to question THE Harvard Medical School. You think you know better than them? I'm sure the people on that study came to a "consensus" for a reason. And who are you to question their consensus, your just some kid on the internet. :icon_chee
 
Am I the only one who thinks this thread has more than run its course? Aside from what miaou brought to the table (and I thank him for that), this thread has gone nowhere for about 100 posts...it's almost painful at this point.

But I don't know, maybe there are some spectators really enjoying this.
 
Turbozed just can't resist, his profession dictates argument to exhaustion.
 
Have you heard it called anything else?

I have a bookshelf next to me of about 30 medical texts, some completely on medical biochemistry. Do you know how many references there are to "lipid hypothesis"? Zero. Want to guess why? Probably for the same reason "germ theory" isn't named in my microbiology texts. It's been so widely accepted for so long that you usually only hear the term from fringe deniers.

Also how do you know what I knew or didn't know before this thread was created?

Maybe because when the article was posted about inflammation playing a part in atherosclerosis, you got all giddy and made some comments about how that weakens the case for lipid involvement and how no one in the know believed that anymore anyway. And then most of your posts since then.

If you're unfamiliar with the original lipid hypothesis then don't comment when people who do know about it are talking about it.

Frankly, I'm not convince you know anything about it. What original lipid hypothesis are you talking about? 1850s? 1950s?

Face it, you were arrogant and jumped to stupid conclusions about the quality and method of discourse here and now you've retreated to neutering your argument to the point where it had nothing to do with the original discussion.

I wasn't arrogant and haven't backed away from anything I posted. Half the links posted in the first few pages of this thread are absolute garbage.

I thought I was fairly clear. Is there anything you would like me to clarify?

When we talk about the myths concerning cholesterol and saturated fat in regards to the original lipid hypothesis why do you constantly introduce new concepts like inflammation and LDL as a defense for the hypothesis when they are clearly a refutation of it?

I've already tried to explain to you multiple times, but you still don't seem to understand. Go to the library, check out a pathology book, go home and read about the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis. Read it slowly. Reread it if you don't understand.

But you're not content to just say that experts are likely the best equipped. You go further to say that only these people SHOULD be worried about adding to the understanding of science

Most often, those with no education or training in the field have nothing to contribute, except maybe some humorous articles.

Am I the only one who thinks this thread has more than run its course? Aside from what miaou brought to the table (and I thank him for that), this thread has gone nowhere for about 100 posts...it's almost painful at this point.

Hopefully, someone has learned something. The attitude has gone from "fats and LDL are lovely" to "everyone knows LDL is bad and yeah maybe saturated fats might be bad".
 
Hopefully, someone has learned something. The attitude has gone from "fats and LDL are lovely" to "everyone knows LDL is bad and yeah maybe saturated fats might be bad".

Stop trying to characterize the arguments of your opposition in such simplistic terms. Fat (including saturated fat) is an important and useful nutrient, LDL is also necessary for us to even exist, and certain types of fats and types of cholesterol (especially, the VLDL subtype of LDL) can be "bad" under certain conditions. Everyone you've been arguing with has understood this from the beginning of the discussion.
 
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I have a bookshelf next to me of about 30 medical texts, some completely on medical biochemistry. Do you know how many references there are to "lipid hypothesis"? Zero. Want to guess why? Probably for the same reason "germ theory" isn't named in my microbiology texts. It's been so widely accepted for so long that you usually only hear the term from fringe deniers.

Since none of the books on your shelf mention it, it must not exist. Good point.

Maybe because when the article was posted about inflammation playing a part in atherosclerosis, you got all giddy and made some comments about how that weakens the case for lipid involvement and how no one in the know believed that anymore anyway. And then most of your posts since then.

I never said it weakened the case for lipid involvement. We've been discussing the roles of lipoproteins here for years. There's no prize for winning this argument so why bother making stuff up?

Frankly, I'm not convince you know anything about it. What original lipid hypothesis are you talking about? 1850s? 1950s?

The lipid hypothesis that was around in some forms for a while but then popularized and gained wide acceptance when Ancel Keys published his "Seven Countries" study that argued that saturated fats was the major cause of heart disease. This was then made into government health policy and was the basis for the recommendations for low fat diets. Maybe none of that ever happened though since it's not in your books.

I wasn't arrogant and haven't backed away from anything I posted. Half the links posted in the first few pages of this thread are absolute garbage.

Okay, maybe I phrased it wrong. I don't know whether you really are this arrogant or not. I meant to say that you give off all the airs and demeanor of an arrogant person. Thanks for correcting me.

I've already tried to explain to you multiple times, but you still don't seem to understand. Go to the library, check out a pathology book, go home and read about the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis. Read it slowly. Reread it if you don't understand.

I've read about the pathogenesis and pathology at multiple times before. What makes you think I haven't? Or do you just want to seem authoritative by commanding me to do something?

Most often, those with no education or training in the field have nothing to contribute, except maybe some humorous articles.

I agree. But if someone makes an argument, I'm going to respond to the merits of that argument instead of summarily dismissing it due to prior prejudices about their qualification. This is a matter of simple respect and intellectual integrity.

Hopefully, someone has learned something. The attitude has gone from "fats and LDL are lovely" to "everyone knows LDL is bad and yeah maybe saturated fats might be bad".

Yeah. We were all imbeciles fumbling around in the dark until you arrived. Thank you so much for enlightening us

Replies in yellow.
 
Everyone you've been arguing with has understood this from the beginning of the discussion.

No you/they haven't. This thread started off with you linking an article by a fitness consultant describing what "really" causes atherosclerosis. Among other things, he claims no association exists between serum LDL levels and atherosclerosis. He doesn't know what he's talking about, and if you did, you wouldn't have ever posted that.
 
No you/they haven't. This thread started off with you linking an article by a fitness consultant describing what "really" causes atherosclerosis. Among other things, he claims no association exists between serum LDL levels and atherosclerosis. He doesn't know what he's talking about, and if you did, you wouldn't have ever posted that.

You could pick any number of details out of the links I posted and take issue with them. I would, too. As I specifically said to you in another thread days ago, I believe there is a weak association between high LDL and CVD. But high LDL can mean different things, depending on what types of LDL we're talking about, and what the other conditions in the body are.

All of this misses the big picture. Why did I post that link? Several reasons:

-To get people away from the "bacon grease congealing in pan" idea of atherosclerosis
-To remind people that cholesterol actually has important functions in our bodies
-To get people thinking about what types of cholesterol are problematic--yes, LDL, but more specifically, VLDL.
-Under what conditions that cholesterol is problematic
-To introduce the idea of epithelial injury, with regards to plaque formation.
-To provoke discussion about oxidation and inflammation, as it relates to these matters.

For those purposes, the first article is a great starting point.

Do I agree with everything, that every author says, and the way they say it, in every link I posted? Of course not. But you're missing the forest for the trees.

Finally, to keep coming back to that article, one out of 15 or so links, is to straw-man my argument. Why not take issue with any of the stuff there that was the work of doctors? Such links account for about half of the total.
 
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Most often, those with no education or training in the field have nothing to contribute, except maybe some humorous articles.

See this is why I started to rely on the expertise of the Harvard Medical School. I guess I'll go check what they have to say on the subject: "There is, in short, no suggestion of any relation between diet and the subsequent development of CHD"

And the Journal of the American Medical Association: "dietary saturated fat reduced strokes"
 
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."
 
See this is why I started to rely on the expertise of the Harvard Medical School. I guess I'll go check what they have to say on the subject: "There is, in short, no suggestion of any relation between diet and the subsequent development of CHD"

...in the particular group being looked at maybe. I would be interested in taking a look at the paper this quote comes from, except unfortunately it never made it into any scientific journal. From what I gather, someone found this quote buried in a stack of typewritten papers from the 60's, and CT'ers cling to it as if it is evidence of a nefarious government cover-up. I believe this is from the Framingham heart study group with Boston University. I can't be for sure, as a Google search of the quote only return links to bogey sites like garagestrength and naturalchelationtherapy. But if you are curious as to findings of the Framingham heart study, I suggest you look there for information instead of some personal trainer's blog. There's a clear link between diet and CHD.
 
I think this belongs here. Most relevant is 3:14 onwards:



It's not a black and white issue so let's try to avoid framing it as such with facile arguments such as 'those that question the science believe in nefarious government conspiracy theories' or that there's absolutely no link between diet and disease. This is called a straw-man argument and it, too, is a logical fallacy (the first one at least).
 
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It's not a black and white issue so let's try to avoid framing it as such with facile arguments such as 'those that question the science believe in nefarious government conspiracy theories' or that there's absolutely no link between diet and disease. This is called a straw-man argument and it, too, is a logical fallacy (the first one at least).

No, a lot of claims in this thread, yours included, actually match the exact definition of a conspiracy theory.

You know, I often enjoy well-thought-out arguments contrary to my beliefs. Sometimes I might learn something. Sometimes I might reply in a way where others learn something. I see this as win-win. But when you call me things like lazy and willfully ignorant, it tells me you're already aware you have no argument because you have to prop it up with rhetoric. At this point, I get bored with the discussion, and I go off to find something more interesting to do with my time.

And btw, the only logical fallacy here was when you "logically inferred" that the response-to-injury hypothesis refuted the lipid hypothesis.
 
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