Choque - The official thread

[slideyfoot]

Yeah, I was a bit disappointed with volume 3. I was hoping for much more on the history of how various teams (especially less known ones like Lotus Club and Cia Paulista) got started. It felt like a lot of it was stuff I already knew, compared to the first two volumes.

Then again, as he's basing it heavily on newspapers, I guess that cuts down on that sort of info, as newspapers aren't going to care all that much about a BJJ club starting up or the backstory of a particular instructor. Still some interesting bits though, mainly when he takes a step back and tries to come up with theories as to why jiu jitsu declined at certain times, the marketing strategy of Helio failing, the early competitions and governing bodies, etc.

Also, the constant sarcastic jibes at Helio and Carlos amused me. Though you could definitely argue that he swings too far in the anti direction when it comes to bias.

 

[TheHereticJay]

At one point, Carlson went to Brito's academy and asked to be accepted as a judo student. Helio and Carlos flipped their shit over that one. There's also mention that in the near future, Carlson's students, including Rolls, would go on to train judo with Alves and Mehdi.

I could imagine Helio's reaction...

Helio - "How dare you train in the art that rag dolled me for multiple minutes, knocked me unconscious, and then broke my arm! Jiu Jitsu is all you need...even though I lost. It's all you need!"

 

[slideyfoot]

I could imagine Helio's reaction...

Helio - "How dare you train in the art that rag dolled me for multiple minutes, knocked me unconscious, and then broke my arm! Jiu Jitsu is all you need...even though I lost. It's all you need!"

There's an interesting theory at the end where the author posits that there might have been a direct line of judo technique to the Gracie family that pretty much circumvented Helio and Carlos, rendering what training Carlos may (or as the author strongly implies, may not) have done with Maeda. E.g., the author says in footnote 24 to Appendix 5 (the 'Technical Evolution' section):

Alves was spending time (it isn't clear whether he was learning, teaching, training, or simply hanging around) at one of the Gracie academies during the early 1950s, it easily could have been Alves who taught Helio Gracie the judo self-defence moves he performed on film, circa 1954-1955.

According to Alves, Kurachi and Hinata were strong at both stand-up and ground. Based on his training with them, Alves concluded that "judo and jiu jitsu were the same thing". Throughout the years Alves trained with and taught judo and jiu jitsu to many of the Gracies, including Reylson, Carlos Jr and Rolls. If this is the case (which no one denies), speculation about Carlos Gracie learning from Conde Koma and Helio Gracie learning by watching Carlos are superfluous. Most of the technical side of the story can be explained simply by reference to a direct line of transmission from Ogawa to Kurachi to Alves to the Gracies.

 

[RTD1]

There's an interesting theory at the end where the author posits that there might have been a direct line of judo technique to the Gracie family that pretty much circumvented Helio and Carlos, rendering what training Carlos may (or as the author strongly implies, may not) have done with Maeda. E.g., the author says in footnote 24 to Appendix 5 (the 'Technical Evolution' section):

Ok, that's it, I'm not reading this thread any more until I'm done with Vol 3, too many spoilers. I'm about 1/4 way through.

I will say though, that what you posted seems plausible. Whatever Carlos and Helio were doing in the 1930's and 1940's was, it seems to bear almost no resemblance to the BJJ that developed out of Carlson's camp in the 1960's and beyond and that we know today. Didn't Carlson at one point in an interview 10-15 years ago say something like "my jiu jitsu has nothing to do with GJJ"?

 

[A Muse of Fire]

That's crazy that Carlos was able.to get away with sleeping with his friends wives hijacking acadamies and such.

 

[MitsuyoMaeda]

I agree on the section about Alves. He (Alves) claims a majority of the sweeps (and some guards) in bjj came by way of him. Stuff that he brought back from Japan while training with Okano. Stuff that has been built upon today.

 

[slideyfoot]

Didn't Carlson at one point in an interview 10-15 years ago say something like "my jiu jitsu has nothing to do with GJJ"?

Yep, here:

Reylson is mentally retarded, crazy, and should be in a mental hospital. I have no answers for a famigerado (asshole/troublemaker). About the rest of the family, everything is fine right now. Even though there's little things that I don't agree with. But in the ring, I don't care. My Jiu-Jitsu is completely different from theirs, my technique has nothing to do with "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu". I AM CARLSON GRACIE and that's the way it is in the ring. Who ever shows up on the way in, is going to have to fight against my fighters.

 

[ijustwannasurf]

I agree on the section about Alves. He (Alves) claims a majority of the sweeps (and some guards) in bjj came by way of him. Stuff that he brought back from Japan while training with Okano. Stuff that has been built upon today.

Any more specifics on this?

 

[Train.Harder]

Wait until you read about the root of Jiu Jitsu in China and India. It's all very interesting to read and research on. History is fascinating indeed.

HERE HERE!

This is a fascinating story, i'm going to have to pick this up. It all makes so much more sense then "The Gracies took that POS Japanese Jiujitsu and made it into the worlds most powerful Martial Art ever with no help from anyone, and against all odds!" official Gracie story haha.

I love a good thread about books

 

[MitsuyoMaeda]

Alves said that there were 5 sweeps prior in jiu jitsu prior to him leaving to Japan. After his training he helped develop multiple sweeps and guard attacks. He said there are now 50 sweeps in jiu jitsu and many can be link to him. He said there were interesting attacks from the guard that he built upon such as a high guard arm bar. Alves also claims to have brought the loop choke into jiu jitsu. Okano is the one who taught him. He also brought a lot of attacks from side control. He claims that Yamashita and Okano had a lot of attacks from side control.

Alves even taught in the Kodokan and remains the only BJJ rep to do so.

Other BJJ guys who trained with Okano are Joe Moriera and Edson Carvalho.

 

[theslug]

Well seems to have gone for circle and gone back to it roots.

 

[RTD1]

Just finished reading it. Will post my overall thoughts later. But one thing that I learned that I had no idea about was that Mitsuyo Maeda never fought in a single vale tudo match in his entire career. According to one of the appendixes in Choque Vol 3, every single one of his matches in Brazil was under gi grappling rules, outside of Brazil he participated in both gi and no gi grappling contests (with mixed results in the latter), but no vale tudo matches. I always assumed he was doing vale tudo fights as well.

 

[RTD1]

http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/roger-gracie-bio

It was around this time that Roger was forced to move to London

 

[thefreeaccount]

Did you not read the english language sources I gave. The Japanese sources I included because I thought you would be interested.


Actually I asked simply asked you to think about the fact that dojime (and ashi garami) were banned after the Kodokan officially assimilated Tanabe and his ne waza, and the fact that it was Tenabe who insisted ashi garami be included in the Katame No Kata, and to think about the relationship of both to recovering from a botched tomoe. It was an exercise for you to think about, not part of an argument (yet).

Firstly, I just wanted to say thanks for all the research you've done and the patience you've demonstrated in this thread. You obviously have some very deep knowledge about the history of martial arts, extremely impressive credentials, and the intelligence necessary to turn facts into (in)credible conclusions.

That said, I still can't understand the puzzle you presented in this post. And, as far as I can tell, no one has really addressed it. Ashi Garami is apparently a kind of leg control (not leg lock as we would understand it, ie, directly damaging the knee joint?), while tomoe seems to be a sort of nasty karate-style overhead spine throw/slam (the spine being the point of leverage), apparently designed to cause a resisting opponent to fall on his neck.

Ashi Garami seems to be illegal in Judo, while Tomoe is allowed. It seems to me that Ashi Garami can be used as a counter to Tomoe (preventing the opponent from extending both his legs in the air). We know that 21st century Judoka couldn't care less about the safety of their students, having few reservations or regrets about beating children to death; if children suffer permanent injury or death, it proves that the kids weren't working hard enough. In earlier times, this reckless disregard for safety was likely much transparent.

Are you suggesting that Tenabe, having been disabled by a crazy slam, was no longer able effectively argue for groundwork, including Ashi Garami? Or that after Tenabe and Kano both suffered injuries from the nutty throw, both decided that throws were more important than ground work? Or am I off the wrong track entirely?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/roger-gracie-bio



In Choque 3, we learn that the police matter that forced Roger Gracie to flee Brazil for the UK was that he was part of a gang that did a driveby shooting on 3 transvestites. Granted, they were shooting hard rubber bullets out of a paintball gun, so no one was killed or anything, but apparently one needed surgery on his (her?) ass.

That is very bad publicity for Roger.

 

[Cachimbo]

Some people in Brazil are saying that "Choque" was plagiarized from Marcial Serrano's books, which do essentially the same thing. Marcial uses newspaper articles that were contemporaneous to the events to trace the actual history of jiu jitsu and unmask a lot of the propaganda laid out by the Gracies.

In one section of the books he describes how Carlos Gracie, before he was trained in Jiu Jitsu, was left to take care of the Academy owned by Donato Pires dos Reis, who at the time had a document showing that he was the only Brazilian graded by the Japanese Masters. Donato had a job transfer for a state agency and had to move.

Carlos got himself in some deep water with the catch wrestlers by messing with the Capoeira guys, forcing them to wear GIs so that he'd be able to win and by claiming that he was the Brazilian Champion even though he'd never had a jiu jitsu match.

He then got in trouble with Donato when he came back to check on his academy and realized Carlos was out and about swindling everyone along with Helio and George. So Carlos went to Geo Omori for help, and they set up a staged fight traveling show while Omori trained all the brothers in actual jiu jitsu paying special attention to George.

Anyway, I haven't read Choque. Marcial's books are "Geo Omori - O Guardiao Samurai," and "O Livro Proibido do Jiu Jitsu: A Historia que os Gracies Nao Contaram" which is 5 volumes so far (2500 pages total). The First volume covers early 20th century, the second is 1934 - 1950, the third 50 - 55, the fourth is 55 - 59, the fifth 59-64 (showing who truly introduced Judo to Brazil and how the arts divided for sportive reasons) and there's a 6th that's still to come out.

According to the description he did all his research in the National Library in Rio. The first book came out in 2013, and the second edition of the first volume came out in 2014.

Translation of the book names "Geo Omori - The Samurai Guardian" and "The Forbidden Book of Jiu Jitsu: The The Story the Gracies Never Told."

Now one of these two guys seems to be derivative of the other, if not outright plagiarizing. Otherwise there is a massive coincidence going on.

If I get enough time I'll try to get copies of all their books and compare them to see how similar the material is. In the meantime maybe one of you that already read Choque could check out the google books copies of Marcial's books and compare them.

 

[RTD1]

Some people in Brazil are saying that "Choque" was plagiarized from Marcial Serrano's books, which do essentially the same thing. Marcial uses newspaper articles that were contemporaneous to the events to trace the actual history of jiu jitsu and unmask a lot of the propaganda laid out by the Gracies.

In one section of the books he describes how Carlos Gracie, before he was trained in Jiu Jitsu, was left to take care of the Academy owned by Donato Pires dos Reis, who at the time had a document showing that he was the only Brazilian graded by the Japanese Masters. Donato had a job transfer for a state agency and had to move.

Carlos got himself in some deep water with the catch wrestlers by messing with the Capoeira guys, forcing them to wear GIs so that he'd be able to win and by claiming that he was the Brazilian Champion even though he'd never had a jiu jitsu match.

He then got in trouble with Donato when he came back to check on his academy and realized Carlos was out and about swindling everyone along with Helio and George. So Carlos went to Geo Omori for help, and they set up a staged fight traveling show while Omori trained all the brothers in actual jiu jitsu paying special attention to George.

Anyway, I haven't read Choque. Marcial's books are "Geo Omori - O Guardiao Samurai," and "O Livro Proibido do Jiu Jitsu: A Historia que os Gracies Nao Contaram" which is 5 volumes so far (2500 pages total). The First volume covers early 20th century, the second is 1934 - 1950, the third 50 - 55, the fourth is 55 - 59, the fifth 59-64 (showing who truly introduced Judo to Brazil and how the arts divided for sportive reasons) and there's a 6th that's still to come out.

According to the description he did all his research in the National Library in Rio. The first book came out in 2013, and the second edition of the first volume came out in 2014.

Translation of the book names "Geo Omori - The Samurai Guardian" and "The Forbidden Book of Jiu Jitsu: The The Story the Gracies Never Told."

Now one of these two guys seems to be derivative of the other, if not outright plagiarizing. Otherwise there is a massive coincidence going on.

If I get enough time I'll try to get copies of all their books and compare them to see how similar the material is. In the meantime maybe one of you that already read Choque could check out the google books copies of Marcial's books and compare them.

I will check that out if there are English copies available.

I don't think anyone is necessarily plagiarizing anyone else. It's just that now you've got academics interested in BJJ, and they're applying actual research methods (such as by going to primary sources) to help uncover the history of the art's development. We're all better off for it if it stops people from mindlessly repeating the historical nonsense Rorion cooked up for the GJJ In Action tapes and the Playboy interviews which later got lifted unquestioningly into The Gracie Way book.

 

[RTD1]

A handful of key takeaways from Choque Vol3:

- Judo was exploding in Brazil during this time. Many of the guys who were doing jiu jitsu alongside the Gracies during earlier years converted to judo. Guys like Oswaldo Alves and George Mehdi went to Japan and trained with Isao Okana and other luminaries (including Kimura in at least one case). When people joke about the "De La Okano" guard depicted in Vital Judo, it may not be a case of "re-discovery". Carlson trained at Haroldo Brito's Judo academy. Helio trained with Sumiyuki Kotani and Chugo Sato, there are photographs of this, and Helio received some sort of Kodokan diploma from them (it's also speculated that Helio may have followed up with further Judo training in Argentina after this).

- Carlson played a huge role in the development of BJJ. He had a large stable of fighters that were actively competing and sharing technique. Rolls and others were cross training in wrestling and sambo. Brazil started an olympic wrestling team and a number of jiu jitsu guys participated (with mixed results).

- BJJ as a sport really started to take off during the 1980's. High level competition always works to advance an art/sport. When BJJ started to take off in the US after the first UFC in 1993, a lot of the big names in BJJ at the time were really guys who had pioneered sport BJJ in Brazil not long before (e.g., they weren't merely the latest crop of competitors).

 

[slideyfoot]

I don't think the Geo Omori book is available in English, but you can get an eBook, here. Somebody I know bought that, but he said you need one of those Brazilian national tax code things. I've had a flick through, but as my Portuguese is poor, lots of Google Translate action.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

LOLZ bumping this thread for the LULZ.

anyways did volume cuarto come out yet?

And so which dojo or Ryu did submission off your back first make an appearance in written history? Apparently from re-reading this thread, it was a guy named Oda, or Tenabe, that decided to start pulling guard to beat the Kodokan. But where did either of those two get their submissions off the back?