Classism in Liberal News Comedy

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Trotsky, Mar 10, 2018.

  1. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Messages:
    61,392
    Likes Received:
    25,021
    Hmm. Seems like quite a leap from, "wage stagnation isn't a plausible reason why someone would vote for a billionaire conman promising to cut taxes on the rich and deregulate Wall Street" to "the question wasn't made in good faith." Like, do you just think your point was that self-evidently correct? Don't see any issues with it? I don't really know what to tell you other than that I don't see any plausible connection there and I can't see why you would, aside from the common tendency of people to think that if only X had done what I wanted, Y (bad thing) wouldn't have happened.

    I agree that people shouldn't be classist pricks (it's the wrong thing to do), but follow the train. You talked about the rise of Trump being avoidable by addressing populist concerns. I said that the primary populist concern that people wanted addressed was a rising minority population (and a related rising level of social equality).

    Not supporting their viable opponents in elections.

    That's fine (I disagree, but whatever), but at least here you're acknowledging that it's a difference of principle rather than a disagreement between people with principles and people without principles. Again, in this train, I was criticizing the idea that your opponents are people who argue for expediency over principle, while your allies are angels. There's a *difference* of principles (as I said, is it worth it to harm millions of people in order to express your petulance or not).
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  2. Gandhi

    Gandhi War Room Deep State Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    17,394
    Likes Received:
    8,219
    Location:
    MTL in ORLANDO
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    HomerThompson and Jack V Savage like this.
  3. Trotsky

    Trotsky Social Capitalist / Capitalistic Communist

    Joined:
    May 20, 2016
    Messages:
    11,650
    Likes Received:
    26,998
    Why exactly do you think Trump performed so well in Ohio and Pennsylvania? Do you not think that his appeals to post-industrial work forces and criticism of NAFTA resonated with communities in economic decline and whose capital has increasingly been siphoned to the coasts? Persons who were sold an American dream, gave their time and health for it, and then got the short end when their employers moved abroad and reneged on their pensions? You don't think Trump's rhetoric about punishing businesses and reviving manufacturing might have played some role at the margins of the electorate?

    I'm not meaning to ask these questions condescendingly, but, yes, I did think they were somewhat self-evident.

    Yes, data shows that immigration and racial animus was a primary consideration for voters, but those hostilities were also downstream from economic concerns, as these communities (referenced earlier) think their jobs are being taken by illegal immigrants or given to black workers through affirmative action programs while the job pool dries up and becomes more competitive.
     
    HomerThompson likes this.
  4. Gandhi

    Gandhi War Room Deep State Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    17,394
    Likes Received:
    8,219
    Location:
    MTL in ORLANDO
    You can safely ignore that post.

    You are wrong though on the last para.

    Canada has had plenty of strong NDP candidates in the past. Ontario and other provinces have been run by NDP provincial parties. The party even was strongly allied with the liberals during their minority government in the 1970's which helped us get universal healthcare and other social goods.

    The CBC provides a strong left of center/but still centrist counter to the national post / Conrad Black types, and our biggest paper, the Globe and Mail is also liberal/left of center (not govt funded).

    The reality is that from east to west (which is more right wing than the east), Canadians are on many issues just not as conservative as Americans on many issues. The geographic divide exists but it is much smaller. But they are also just not as left wing as you might like.
     
    JudoThrowFiasco likes this.
  5. Gandhi

    Gandhi War Room Deep State Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    17,394
    Likes Received:
    8,219
    Location:
    MTL in ORLANDO

    Globe and Mail leading Canadian newspaperreadership, study says. Open this photo in gallery: ... The Globe's weekly newspaper readership, in print and online, is 6.58 million. The National Post at 4.2 million.Oct 22, 2015
     
  6. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Messages:
    61,392
    Likes Received:
    25,021
    I'll take these together as I think they're related. The "economic" concerns are downstream of the cultural ones. Surely you don't think that Trump's criticism of NAFTA resonated with retired coal workers as much as the general anger at seeing more Mexicans around. Putting aside the fact that NAFTA was actually a benefit to American workers, what percentage of Trump voters even know what it stands for, much less knows anything at all about it? I think *you* don't like NAFTA for some reason, and so you generalize from there.
     
  7. sub_thug

    sub_thug Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,188
    Likes Received:
    10,239
    PA and OH have been closely contested states for many years, and I think you raise an important point by mentioning them. Of course they are pissed, by we've known about this for 50 years. When the steel industry up and moved to China because of free trade (I'm not arguing for or against it, I'm just stating what I think happened), the primary employer in those states left with it. For 50 years, those that have been able to get a college education and a decent job offer elsewhere have left the states. Those that weren't able to get an education and a job offer elsewhere stayed local, meaning that what you have are three groups of people: 1) employed people who are earning what you'd expect them to earn for the local area (but this group isn't as large as what you'd see in other large metropolitan centers due to a lack of local opportunities), 2) under-employed people (the college-educated adult working for low wages for a local business or state/local government), and 3) uneducated people working the jobs that you'd expect them to work. When Group 1's numbers are suppressed, the other two are inflated. The area goes into a death spiral, as the people with the highest earning potential drain out of the area so that they don't fall into Group 2. Property values drop, taxes increase because there are less high-earning people to offset the costs, drugs move in, and that's all she wrote.

    Is it right to treat these people condescendingly? It is right to dismiss them as a bunch of pickup-driving racists? It's not surprising that when a guy like Trump gets up and talks about rejuvenating manufacturing, they are going to get excited at the prospect of turning their towns around. What the left has done a piss-poor job of in recent years is understanding who they are talking to in these areas.
     
    HomerThompson and flashNsmash like this.
  8. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Messages:
    61,392
    Likes Received:
    25,021
    See, @Trotsky, China trade is a much more legitimate target than NAFTA, but it didn't get as much play because the argument was never about economics.

    The thing is, though, the way forward is investing in local colleges, more high-skilled immigration, and infrastructure improvements. Trump is selling them bullshit, and they are in fact buying it because of the appeals to racial resentment. I think those of us who genuinely want to make those places better have a fine line to walk. We don't want to hurt their feelings, but we also don't want to either A) reach out to the worst in them or B) lie to them. What do you do when the truth hurts and the people you are talking to are extremely sensitive?
     
  9. Trotsky

    Trotsky Social Capitalist / Capitalistic Communist

    Joined:
    May 20, 2016
    Messages:
    11,650
    Likes Received:
    26,998
    I think the two anxieties are related, to be sure. In my experience, cultural hostilities toward Hispanic and Latino people are not nearly as severe as those toward black and Asian persons.

    Do I think post-industrial Midwesterner had complex opinions on FTA's prior to Trump? Probably not. But he gave them a reason for their plight, and I think it made sense to them and they bought in (in tandem with the displacement of job opportunities by uppity brown people).
     
    HomerThompson likes this.
  10. Devout Pessimist

    Devout Pessimist Yellow Card Yellow Card

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2011
    Messages:
    30,811
    Likes Received:
    25,528
    I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to point out that barely anyone in Canada reads newspapers.
     
  11. sub_thug

    sub_thug Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,188
    Likes Received:
    10,239
    I maintain that there is a deep economic piece to it. I honestly see the flow like this: The factory is in the town, and I'm not kidding when I say that these factories employed over 60% of the men in the town. The rest were employed by mom-and-pop shops like the local restaurants, a grocery store, a pharmacy, and support services like police officers. Then, one day, the factory says that they are shutting down and moving to China. The men have no work, so they drink more. There's less money flowing around, so people aren't eating out. It's not long before people just up and leave, and those that stay are mostly the retired persons and those working at things like the pharmacy. Some are good jobs, like the pharmacist, but most are things like the cashiers, grocery store personnel, etc. People become resentful, but it's not an implicit hatred of a minority population like it was during the early half of the 1900's where people hated blacks. This is a totally different thing altogether, and it's resentment and blame for the removal of opportunities in their lives. It expresses a little bit as racism, but it's much more about feeling forgotten (I know some of these towns quite well, as my dad grew up in one). I think your argument is putting the cart before the horse on this one.

    I agree that Trump is selling them bullshit. I was willing to give him an opportunity to deliver at first, but it's clear that he doesn't plan on fulfilling those promises to this group of Americans. I agree that infrastructure will go a long ways. High-skilled immigration will help specific areas, but these steel mill towns in PA don't have jobs for anyone, much less high-skilled immigrants. They will help ensure that cities and metro areas be innovation drivers for years to come. Local colleges is a maybe for me. One of the big problems with education today is that you are essentially buying a brand when you pay for your diploma. When that brand is Harvard or Yale, it's a great brand that pays for itself. Even if you are a sharp person who knows a lot, if you have a nothing college's name on your diploma, it won't carry you as far. Colleges are very much places to develop networks and expose yourself to experiences, just as much as they are about what happens in the classroom.

    Yes, the people that I am talking about are extremely sensitive. And many are resistant to change, so offering new industries can be met with push-back. I'm not sure what should be done, but I think this group needs some attention and care just as much as any other group.
     
    HomerThompson and Jack V Savage like this.
  12. Gandhi

    Gandhi War Room Deep State Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2003
    Messages:
    17,394
    Likes Received:
    8,219
    Location:
    MTL in ORLANDO
    - 15 of 35MM reading the top 3 papers = hardly ?

    No the point isthat the liberal rag is read more than the conservative one. No govt funding required. Rather than cry about the CBC maybe you should accept that most Canadians just don’t think the way you do.
     
    HomerThompson likes this.
  13. Rational Poster

    Rational Poster Scourge of the War Room

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2013
    Messages:
    28,633
    Likes Received:
    27,671
    Canada isn't America.

    11 million people is like 1/4-1/3 of your population my dude.
     
  14. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Messages:
    61,392
    Likes Received:
    25,021
    Good stuff snipped. I had an exchange with Zank recently (you were there early on) in which I cited an important piece on the issue: https://medium. com/migration-issues/appalachia-is-dying-pikeville-is-not-fa583dac67de (erase the space).
     
    sub_thug likes this.
  15. I heart Pho

    I heart Pho Green Gucci Suit Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2013
    Messages:
    20,410
    Likes Received:
    18,788
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    not liking fast food, Mountain Dew and retail stores isn't elitist.
     
    Casrot and HomerThompson like this.
  16. sub_thug

    sub_thug Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,188
    Likes Received:
    10,239
    Very interesting! Perhaps a great model for other small towns. I understand that not every small town can do this, but it's possible that not every small town can be saved anyways. For the delta (whatever the size of it), other solutions will need to be applied. But this may be a model to help some of them. Thanks for the share!
     
    Jack V Savage likes this.
  17. HomerThompson

    HomerThompson President of the War Room Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    40,337
    Likes Received:
    68,248
    Location:
    Terror Lake
    Please explain further.
     
  18. HomerThompson

    HomerThompson President of the War Room Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    40,337
    Likes Received:
    68,248
    Location:
    Terror Lake
    You really think Trump won Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Wisconsin because of racism? That's idiotic.
     
  19. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Messages:
    61,392
    Likes Received:
    25,021
    The 2016 presidential election was Trump vs. Clinton. If you wanted Clinton to lose it and/or were encouraging people not to vote for Clinton, you were supporting Trump.

    I think the evidence is pretty clear that racial resentment was a key (decisive) factor. For example:

    https://www.thenation.com/article/economic-anxiety-didnt-make-people-vote-trump-racism-did/
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  20. salamander

    salamander Promethium Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2018
    Messages:
    1,488
    Likes Received:
    3,070
    Location:
    Nocturne
    What an incredibly interesting thread. I wish all the time I waste on this forum could be this guilt free.
     
    The ScorpioN likes this.

Share This Page