Comic Book Debates

[MacDuffle]

Alright you baked potatoes

I've been seeing a lot of posters confuse the lore debates behind famous superheroes/villains
and I'm curious if anyone can hold their own in some famous comic book arguments

Feel free to add your own comic book controversies, origin story debates, spin-off series complaints, but I'll lay down some of the famous ones:

1. How old is the earliest Spiderman? (fans of the series take issue with aging Peter/MJ up into a college setting bitten by a spider touring NYU campus while others find the high school setting too young) Maybe that's not interesting enough you feel like tackling Spiderman's webs: man-made or genetic? (web-shooters vs sticky hands?)

2.

Metal or Bone

When the Origin series hit shelves in 2002 fans largely rejected the idea that Wolverine could have an origin story without the Weapon X program -- instead of a metal alloy exoskeleton Wolverine's claws were bone; his birthplace moved from Canada to the deep South. Huckleberry Finn Wolverine or Lab Rat Wolverine? Never mind the origin story, is Sabertooth Wolverine's brother? (confirmed in several spin-offs while still disputed by readers)

3. What happens to Batgirl? Die-hard fans of Batgirl (and Supergirl) have pointed out for years that the character's own writers were fed-up with the challenges of writing heroic scenarios for them and pushed relentlessly for storylines that planted them in "damsel in distress" roles when they weren't being killed off or made to look dead. Alan Moore's The Killing Joke in 1988 and several other "Death of Batgirl" spin-offs lay the groundwork for Oracle -- a paralyzed and retired Batgirl who becomes a handy mission-control operative for Batman and other heroes. Die hard fans reject the premise of Oracle as a history reminder of how Batgirl writers repeatedly stifled her ability to succeed, while many fans loved the gritty harshness/nihilism in Batgirl's second-form. Does crippling Batgirl jump the shark and waste her character potential? The same could easily apply to Supergirl's death (?) which has also been called a lazy move by fans

4. Is Superman faster than the Flash? Several comics feature Flash mocking Superman for being slower than him, which drew powerful denial from Superman fans. What about Quicksilver?

5. What deaths are canon? Marvel's editor Joe Quesada famously hated the marriages of Peter Parker and Gwen Stacey/Mary Jane (both Stan Lee's ideas) and believed they would lose YA reader interest; he instructed storyboards move quickly to feature Gwen's death shortly after the wedding which stunned fans and inspired mountains of complaints from fans begging the writers to bring her back. While several subsequent storylines revealed Gwen's death to be a red herring, her death is largely considered Canon. Like the Death of Superman, Death of Batman, not to mention the slew of X-men storylines that wiped everyone off the face of the earth, whose deaths would you argue need to be canon?

6. Ant-Man and Wasp: Domestic Abuse? Many fans defend Hank Pym's accidental origins as a wife-beater (a famous mix-up where a backhand was drawn instead of the 'push' instructed) on the grounds that it highlights his failures and hypocrisies as a superhero and wanted it to feature in the latest Ant Man/Wasp film adaptation which of course opted out. While alcoholism and abuse became Ant Man's trademark weaknesses, many fans argue that trapping Wasp under glasses, burning her with a magnifying glass (among other punishments) goes too far

You don't need a binder full of source-material to argue these points by the way, any angles are welcome

I'll update the list if I recall more or if anyone has some great ones

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Is it Clark Kent or Clark Kunt?

Hmmmmm

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Also the flash can tap into the speed force so I really don’t understand how Supes can be faster.

Also the Flash can vibrate through objects because he moves so quickly. I’ve never heard of Superman doing that

 

[Anung Un Rama]

Wolverine's origin wasn't moved to the deep south, he's still a Canuck.
Domestic Abuse Hank Pym was retconned to be a Skrull in Secret Invasion.
Peter never married Gwen Stacy.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

Wolverine's Origin story takes place like a century before the Weapons X program.
IMO, it was a mistake to reveal a definitive origin for the character. Making Sabretooth his brother, or even making them so closely associated, was silly and the Romulus character was beyond retarded. Even before that they Wolverine stand alone comic was incredibly stupid.

 

[Bobby Boulders]

Peter Parker never married Gwen Stacy.

 

[Bobby Boulders]

Also the flash can tap into the speed force so I really don’t understand how Supes can be faster.

Also the Flash can vibrate through objects because he moves so quickly. I’ve never heard of Superman doing that

If he is faster bc of Speed Force, Flash is stronger now too, bc of Strength Force.

Superman sucks now, confirmed.

 

[Turtlejuice]

Flash is kinda lame.

"Oh another man who's faster than the fastest man alive, who hates the fastest man alive for some reason, and the only way to beat him is for the flash to learn to be even faster".

Fuck off.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

I personally had no problem with Peter growing up. He's actually done with college now, too (I think), but hs Spidy is best Spidy.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

If he is faster bc of Speed Force, Flash is stronger now too, bc of Strength Force.

Superman sucks now, confirmed.

I guess. I'm not really sure how to even answer that question.

Flash uses the speed force, which he taps into, making him faster than anything imaginable. That's how I always looked at it

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Flash is kinda lame.

"Oh another man who's faster than the fastest man alive, who hates the fastest man alive for some reason, and the only way to beat him is for the flash to learn to be even faster".

Fuck off.

Actually if you read Geoff Johns entire Flash run you'd really get into the character.

He wrote Wally West not Barry Allen (hbo he wrote Barry many many years later during Flash rebirth) and it really made me enjoy the character. Johns run is really incredible

 

[Lovestorm]

5. What deaths are canon? Marvel's editor Joe Quesada famously hated the marriages of Peter Parker and Gwen Stacey/Mary Jane (both Stan Lee's ideas) and believed they would lose YA reader interest; he instructed storyboards move quickly to feature Gwen's death shortly after the wedding which stunned fans and inspired mountains of complaints from fans begging the writers to bring her back. While several subsequent storylines revealed Gwen's death to be a red herring, her death is largely considered Canon. Like the Death of Superman, Death of Batman, not to mention the slew of X-men storylines that wiped everyone off the face of the earth, whose deaths would you argue need to be canon?

Dunno about Marvel cause i'm not sure if they've had any major reboots, but DC wiped everything and started over in 2011 so the Death of Superman story from the 90s never happened in the ongoing canon.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Wolverine's Origin story takes place like a century before the Weapons X program.
IMO, it was a mistake to reveal a definitive origin for the character. Making Sabretooth his brother, or even making them so closely associated, was silly and the Romulus character was beyond retarded. Even before that they Wolverine stand alone comic was incredibly stupid.

Yeah the mystery with wolverine was never really knowing what was and wasn't real. The memory implants and all that other stuff added to the character.

At some point tho they did need to flesh out a proper back story.

I don't see why origins and weapon x couldn't both exist. He originally had bone claws and weapon X gave him the adamantium skeleton.

That works for me.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Wolverine's origin wasn't moved to the deep south, he's still a Canuck.
Domestic Abuse Hank Pym was retconned to be a Skrull in Secret Invasion.
Peter never married Gwen Stacy.

Rama are you sure that's how far that Pym skrull went back.

I also think marvel needs a Brightest Day moment where they bring back all these old characters that were ruined over the years. I'd like Hank Pym back.

His mighty avengers series that was written by dan slott was really fucking good.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

Yeah the mystery with wolverine was never really knowing what was and wasn't real. The memory implants and all that other stuff added to the character.

At some point tho they did need to flesh out a proper back story.

I don't see why origins and weapon x couldn't both exist. He originally had none claws and weapon X gave him the adamantium skeleton.

That works for me.

Origins and Weapon X do co-exits dont' they?

And you,or I ,may be confusing Origins with Wolverine: Origins.

Origins was where they established Logan being born in 19th century Canada.
Wolverine: Origins was when they started messing around with implants and Romulus.
Right? Or am I misremembering?


The best way to do it would have been to continually peel back layers of Logan's history -- all with a tinge of ambiguity. They could have done this forever while always keeping Logan's origin a mystery.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Origins and Weapon X do co-exits dont' they?

And you,or I ,may be confusing Origins with Wolverine: Origins.

Origins was where they established Logan being born in 19th century Canada.
Wolverine: Origins was when they started messing around with implants and Romulus.
Right? Or am I misremembering?


The best way to do it would have been to continually peel back layers of Logan's history -- all with a tinge of ambiguity. They could have done this forever while always keeping Logan's origin a mystery.

Wait what's he difference between origins and Wolverine Origin. Now I'm confused.

That Jeph Loeb Romulus story was fucking horrendous and needs to be forgotten forever.

Also Rama do you remember during Morrisons Xmen run they tapped into the origin bit as well. We found out weapon X wasn't an X at all but the Roman numeral 10. Which implied there were other weapons before wolvie.

Shit is confusing for us no one who wants to get into comics now will have a fucking clue.

 

[Bobby Boulders]

I guess. I'm not really sure how to even answer that question.

Flash uses the speed force, which he taps into, making him faster than anything imaginable. That's how I always looked at it

Oh, no, I was agreeing with you. And also stating that Flash is stronger than Supes now, and Supes sucks.

 

[Turtlejuice]

Actually if you read Geoff Johns entire Flash run you'd really get into the character.

He wrote Wally West not Barry Allen (hbo he wrote Barry many many years later during Flash rebirth) and it really made me enjoy the character. Johns run is really incredible

Yeah my understanding of the flash comes entirely from the Tv show. Don't think we ever had the flash comics here when I was growing up. Only really read xmen and the various spin offs, Spider-Man and Batman. Our local didn't get in a massive variety, but he did get a lot of the limited editions.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

Rama are you sure that's how far that Pym skrull went back.

I also think marvel needs a Brightest Day moment where they bring back all these old characters that were ruined over the years. I'd like Hank Pym back.

His mighty avengers series that was written by dan slott was really fucking good.

Now I'm doubting myself. I just did a google search and it looks like I could be wrong about Domestic Abuse Pym.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Oh, no, I was agreeing with you. And also stating that Flash is stronger than Supes now, and Supes sucks.

Wait flash is stronger than superman now. I thought the new rebirth fixed superman from where he was during the New 52.

I haven't read much of the new DC after rebirth. Although I love Tom Kings miracle man.