Correlation between attempted guillotines and losing fights?

You know, the sad thing is, is that when Punk did this, any belief that he might actually have been training to fight was thrown into the garbage. Nobody past their first two weeks of BJJ does shit like this.

Things are a little different in a fight.
 
Last few fights where I saw guys attempt guillotines, they both won. Also, the armbar isn't obsolete. It's just not as common because it's a fairly easy submission to defend in MMA. Especially when things are slippery. It's like saying wheel kicks are obsolete because there aren't a ton of KO's from them. It's still effective, just low percentage.
 
I think fear of the guillotine gassing cost me a fight.

I'm pretty good at them, slept a guy two belts and 15kg above me.

But come fight night was so scared of gassing my arms out I reversed him instead of attempting it. Lost a split decision.

Kinda buggs me still.


That said I've seen it cost lots of people a fight, especially arm in.

Wish I tried the sub for at least 20 seconds, but I suppose I know now I could reverse him at will, at the time I was very worried about playing guard and fairly rightfully so.

You know what, I think that last realisation means I can let it go.....maybe.
 
The guillotine has evolved into the Ninja Choke. Far less risky.
What on earth are you talking about? They're completely different techniques.

I'm hearing lots of morons talk about how you have to sacrifice position when you go for guillotines. This isn't how modern guillotines are played. If you can prevent your opponent from going cross body you can almost always reverse to the top position, like what Simon did to Dvalishvili.
 
Armbars aren't obsolete.

Guillotines are relatively common.

You don't really risk losing position in guillotines. You risk losing the guillotine, and ending up in guard, which is an offensive, and defensive position.

Losing position would be ending up mounted, or in side-control.

There's definitely some ill advised guillotine attempts where fighters don't secure the head well before pulling guard, but that's a miscalculation on their part. It's not the guillotines fault. Sometimes sweat, or fatigue play a role as well.

Guillotines are rarely from guard, more often from a scramble and if you have the head like that you can go where you want unless you are on your back.
 
No one does it like CM Punk.

giphy.gif

Pales in comparison to his wrestling, about 5 times the other guy got double Underhooks and CM just bearhugged him as hard as he could.

That's first week stuff imo.
 
Islam Makhachev disagrees with your armbar theory

Guillotines arent going anywhere son

If anything, its the most readily availible submission and can be grabbed from virtually any position
 
What on earth are you talking about? They're completely different techniques.

I'm hearing lots of morons talk about how you have to sacrifice position when you go for guillotines. This isn't how modern guillotines are played. If you can prevent your opponent from going cross body you can almost always reverse to the top position, like what Simon did to Dvalishvili.

Are you serious? Sweeping to top position from a failed guillotine is incredibly rare, maybe initiating a scramble at best and that is only if you have a butterfly. Once a guy pops his head out you have lost your anchor point and don't have any under hooks.

The ninja choke is a modified guillotine and can be finished from more positions and with less control of the rest of the body. It also has much higher initial squeeze potential. Much better for MMA.
 
Are you serious? Sweeping to top position from a failed guillotine is incredibly rare, maybe initiating a scramble at best and that is only if you have a butterfly. Once a guy pops his head out you have lost your anchor point and don't have any under hooks.

The ninja choke is a modified guillotine and can be finished from more positions and with less control of the rest of the body. It also has much higher initial squeeze potential. Much better for MMA.


Turning your opponent over and pinning him onto his back is the proper way of optimizing your finish with a front headlock choke of most any variety, barring a few esoteric variations like the peruvian necktie or wrestlers gag.
 
Overeem seems to do it in every fight after he rocks his opponent instead of going for the tko.

Seems like rock opponent, grab head in plumb, Uber knee the face would be a better play
 
I wonder if the guillotine will soon become obsolete in the same way the armbar has. It seems like so many attempts end up not finishing, in poor position, losing the round, and having gassed out arms. Even only very rocked opponents it seems like a poor choice. Any sort of database for that info?

Joe Rogan's brain. He was saying this the first year I watched MMA (2006).
 
Are you serious? Sweeping to top position from a failed guillotine is incredibly rare, maybe initiating a scramble at best and that is only if you have a butterfly. Once a guy pops his head out you have lost your anchor point and don't have any under hooks.

The ninja choke is a modified guillotine and can be finished from more positions and with less control of the rest of the body. It also has much higher initial squeeze potential. Much better for MMA.
What do you mean by failed guillotine? The old style was to jump closed guard with the guillotine. When guys did that, the result was either the guy got the submission, or the top fighter got out. You're right, you never see reversals from that position. But that's now how modern MMA fighters play guillotines (really since Urijah Faber). They knee shield with their lower leg, force their opponents head to the knee shield side, get the sweep, and settle on top. To suggest you need a butterfly hook to accomplish this shows you have absolutely no idea what you are watching. Guillotines are equally common as sweeps these days than as a submission.

Again, virtually all modern guillotine players play the guillotine this way. Lower leg acts as a knee shield. Head is forced to that side. Topside leg comes over the back. This completely prevents your opponent from going cross-body. No butterfly hooks needed. The master at work:

urijahfaberguillotinechokesjeffcurranwec31.gif


For a very recent example, watch Danny Henry vs Hakeem Dawodu.

And again, ninja choke is a totally different position with different applications from a guillotine. ie: A ninja choke is available on a head inside single leg, whereas a guillotine is not.
 
Last edited:
Turning your opponent over and pinning him onto his back is the proper way of optimizing your finish with a front headlock choke of most any variety, barring a few esoteric variations like the peruvian necktie or wrestlers gag.

The ninja choke can be a front choke (head on chest) or a guillotine (head under armpit).

Yes, optimally you would want to pin and crush/crank the neck with full body weight pressure, but the grip alone is what separates the ninja choke and can produce sufficient squeeze to finish with top pressure. E.G. the first time I remember seeing the ninja choke in the octagon, Kampmann vs Volkmann.
 
What do you mean by failed guillotine? The old style was to jump closed guard with the guillotine. When guys did that, the result was either the guy got the submission, or the top fighter got out. You're right, you never see reversals from that position. But that's now how modern MMA fighters play guillotines (really since Urijah Faber). They knee shield with their lower leg, force their opponents head to the knee shield side, get the sweep, and settle on top. To suggest you need a butterfly hook to accomplish this shows you have absolutely no idea what you are watching. Guillotines are equally common as sweeps these days than as a submission.

Again, virtually all modern guillotine players play the guillotine this way. Lower leg acts as a knee shield. Head is forced to that side. Topside leg comes over the back. This completely prevents your opponent from going cross-body. No butterfly hooks needed. The master at work:

urijahfaberguillotinechokesjeffcurranwec31.gif


For a very recent example, watch Danny Henry vs Hakeem Dawodu.

And again, ninja choke is a totally different position with different applications from a guillotine. ie: A ninja choke is available on a head inside single leg, whereas a guillotine is not.

I am not a bjj noob and have been watching the sport for 14 years so I can identify the techniques.

First off, guillotine finishes are much rarer now than they were a decade ago and guillotine masters are rare. Urijah Faber's last guillotine win was 5 years ago and 3 year b4 his retirement.

Second, the knee shield and butterfly hook are very similar and effectively perform the same function in the finish.

Third, knee shielding is prevalent in arm in guillotines and closed guard seems to still be more prevalent in no arm guillotines.

Fourth, If the head pops out in either variety, sweeping is difficult because you have lost your main control of your opponents body and he can now posture up. Even sweeping with the head to a topside/mounted guillotine is rare.

Lastly, the ninja chokes main weakness is establishing the grip, but after that it is far more dangerous and variable than a guillotine and you don't have to potentially sacrifice position and lose a round on your back. It will only become more popular as the years go on.
 
Are you serious? Sweeping to top position from a failed guillotine is incredibly rare, maybe initiating a scramble at best and that is only if you have a butterfly. Once a guy pops his head out you have lost your anchor point and don't have any under hooks.

The ninja choke is a modified guillotine and can be finished from more positions and with less control of the rest of the body. It also has much higher initial squeeze potential. Much better for MMA.

Sweeping to top position from a guillotine is only rare in MMA because it's not a commonly practiced technique. It's not a commonly practiced technique because it requires you to sacrifice position. However, in BJJ it is very common to latch on a guillotine and sweep to finish from mount. https://www.websta.one/media/BlTkQpkBSHj

Also, the ninja choke is pretty inferior to the no arm guillotine, high elbow guillotine, aka Marcelotine.
 
Miocic vs overeem. If overreem didnt go for that choke he would've been UFC heavyweight champ IMO.
That is a good example and it was a very odd choice Reem made in the heat of the moment.
Watch

The fight


Again


This has been repeated so many times it hurts my head. It was either guillotine or let Stipe stand up. There were no other options available.
Conor would still be laying under Chad Mendez today if not for his attempts.
Wrooooong

Only one sub attempt led to a stand up. The others were all Conor
 
Sweeping to top position from a guillotine is only rare in MMA because it's not a commonly practiced technique. It's not a commonly practiced technique because it requires you to sacrifice position. However, in BJJ it is very common to latch on a guillotine and sweep to finish from mount. https://www.websta.one/media/BlTkQpkBSHj

Also, the ninja choke is pretty inferior to the no arm guillotine, high elbow guillotine, aka Marcelotine.

Obviously, in BJJ being on your back doesn't always mean you're losing.

How is the ninja choke inferior to the no arm guillotine, you can do everything that a no arm and more? Also how is the ninja choke NOT the most evolved form of all the modified guillotine grips, like high elbow (marcelotine) or palm to palm (mckenzietine).
 
E.G. the first time I remember seeing the ninja choke in the octagon, Kampmann vs Volkmann.
This is a semantic debate, but I do not consider that to be a ninja choke. That is a modified guillotine (which I would call a power guillotine.) Watch how Kampann wraps the head. He wraps it like he's going for a guillotine.

In a true ninja choke, the choking arm never wraps from behind. The choking arm comes from the front. See: Arnold Allen vs Burnell/Omer. Chris Cariaso attempted one at the end of round 3 against Formiga. Ellenberger vs Koscheck. And of course, the greatest ninja choke in MMA history: Katsumura vs Ueda. Also, if you watch Ortega vs Guida, Ortega basically threatens it the entire first round.

Picture below of Ortega threatening the ninja choke. Note how this looks absolutely nothing like a guillotine setup, because Guida's head is on the inside.


ninja.png

j9Lk5p

Similarly, see how ellenberger does it to koscheck, as koscheck's head is on the inside:

giphy.gif


Fundamentally, a ninja choke should not be thought of as a modified guillotine. A ninja choke is more conceptually similar to a d'arce. (A ninja choke is simply a d'arce without an arm inside. The choking arm does not wrap behind the head for the setup. The choking arm comes from the front -- like a d'arce. In a guillotine, the choking arm always wraps behind the head.) The distinction is not in the grip, but in the setup.

The original "ninja" choke demonstrated by Murilo Ninja Rua, showing in a very exaggerated fashion how a ninja choke looks with the choking arm coming from the front. Note how the video is titled "Brabo choke variation", given that it is essentially a d'arce without an arm inside.

 
Last edited:
This is a semantic debate, but I do not consider that to be a ninja choke. That is a modified guillotine (which I would call a power guillotine.) Watch how Kampann wraps the head. He wraps it like he's going for a guillotine.

In a true ninja choke, the choking arm never wraps from behind. The choking arm comes from the front. See: Arnold Allen vs Burnell/Omer. Chris Cariaso attempted one at the end of round 3 against Formiga. Ellenberger vs Koscheck. And of course, the greatest ninja choke in MMA history: Katsumura vs Ueda. Also, if you watch Ortega vs Guida, Ortega basically threatens it the entire first round.

Picture below of Ortega threatening the ninja choke. Note how this looks absolutely nothing like a guillotine setup, because Guida's head is on the inside.


View attachment 421749

j9Lk5p

Similarly, see how ellenberger does it to koscheck, as koscheck's head is on the inside:

giphy.gif


Fundamentally, a ninja choke should not be thought of as a modified guillotine. A ninja choke is more conceptually similar to a d'arce. (A ninja choke is simply a d'arce without an arm inside. The choking arm does not wrap behind the head for the setup. The choking arm comes from the front -- like a d'arce. In a guillotine, the choking arm always wraps behind the head.)

Semantics are important when their isn't a clear definition. That's why the Kampmann/Volkmann is now called a ninja choke versus the power guillotine/death choke/modified guillotine that it was called at the time. The term ninja choke seemingly hadn't gained widespread use yet. Hell, Jon Fitch currently refers to his side choke of Brian Foster as HIS ninja choke.

Moreover, from what you are espousing, a ninja choke can only be a front choke and not a guillotine with the chest controlling the back of the head and neck.

Furthermore, in the example of the D'Arce, finishes like that only became popular after the Japanese Necktie came to prominence. Then people started finishing Japanese Neckties with the D'Arce grip but people still referred to the finish as a D'Arce even though the finish fundamentally changed e.g. being close to the opponent's body vs perpendicular and trapping the leg vs sprawling. Even more than that the D'Arce itself supplanted the Brabo choke just with a grip change.

I discussed all of this with my BJJ black belt co-worker and we believe it is clear that the only main advantage a guillotine has over a ninja choke is the set up is easier because getting the ninja choke grip is harder to achieve, especially if you don't have long arms. After the grip is achieved the difference in application of pressure is all in favor of the ninja choke, especially without needing great squeeze ability.
 
Back
Top