COTTO: Made For Muay Thai

just wondering what country you are from. Australia is where its at for thai boxing outside of Thailand.

Does it really matters? If I say I trained in France, which i consider one of the best country to learn MT outside of Thailand, does my opinion has less weight than yours? Or more than a guy's who trained in Russia?

want to get jabbed in the face, guard like a thai boxer. a lot of thai boxers don't have great punch defense.

Yeah, you're right...We're stupid like that. There is no reason why we use the basic Thai guard... We just like to get punched in the face... It's not because there must be a reason...


why do you think most K1 fighters altered their guard to a more boxing style with the hands closer to the body and not so high.

I don't know man... Probably because they fight in K1? And not MT... You know, with elbows and clinching and shit like that?

Look man, no disrespect, but I'm tired of people trying to tell the guys in MT, that they do their own sport the wrong way, and they should learn from boxers and K-boxers...
 
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While I think saying that the Thais are doing their own sport wrong is incorrect, I do think that ignoring things from other martial arts that could be useful - like, for example, certain elements of punching - is also somewhat short sighted. Obviously you'll never be able to take boxing style punches and just copy and paste them into muay Thai, but it doesn't mean that there's nothing of value from boxing in Muay Thai, which I think is somewhat reflected by the number of great nak muay who are also champion level boxers, like Somrak and Samart.

@AndyMaBobs in your article, you mention that Cotto's jab and and left hook look almost the same how he fires them. Could you elaborate a little more? Does he extend the arm like he would for a jab and then turn the elbow over, or is there more too it?
 
@ShadowoftheSun

I agree with you, when it's suggested like that. I even use some elements from TKD in my fights, and talked about it here, even give it as an option when someone is asking about techniques... But that doesn't mean I'm gonna try and convince a vet Kru, that my style should be used and taught... Or tell a beginner he should train that way...

And specially in this forum, where it seems that everyone has an opinion on how MT should be (others with some good arguments, others with nonsenses), I wanted to be the one that says, don't look down on the basics, don't disregard techniques that have been tested again and again in the ring... There is a reason why MT is the way it is...
If that makes me an ass, or a troll, so be it...
 
I choose to believe that I popularised underhooks for Muay Thai. I like going to them a lot. I'll be talking about them when my clinch piece gets posted (yes @Superhet it is actually finished now)

I haven't been happier since being a kid :D it's finally going to be here!
 
Does it really matters? If I say I trained in France, which i consider one of the best country to learn MT outside of Thailand, does my opinion has less weight than yours? Or more than a guy's who trained in Russia?



Yeah, you're right...We're stupid like that. There is no reason why we use the basic Thai guard... We just like to get punched in the face... It's not because there must be a reason...




I don't know man... Probably because they fight in K1? And not MT... You know, with elbows and clinching and shit like that?

Look man, no disrespect, but I'm tired of people trying to tell the guys in MT, that they do their own sport the wrong way, and they should learn from boxers and K-boxers...
take it easy bro i'm not knocking thai at all i just said that western boxing has had an influence on the way some modern thai fighters guard. just wondering who are some of the good fighters fighting out of france at the moment. if i wanted to say something derogatory about thai fighting i would say it sucks against wrestlers. but that's apples and oranges. thais have learnt from other sports just as other sports have learned from thai. and i understand your point completely. the first thing i tell people is that you can't guard like a boxer in Muay thai unless you want to get kicked in the head or elbowed. the first thing wayne parr showed my brother (boxer and mma) was to stand squarer so that they don't kick through your lead leg. i am aware that they are different sports and different sports require different techniques. i am boxer and wrestler also and i can guarantee that no one is easer to double leg than a thai fighter standing on their back leg looking to check kicks.
 
Fabio Pinca is supposed to fight Buakaw this December, and most comments Im reading are favoring Pinca which says a lot.
 
While I think saying that the Thais are doing their own sport wrong is incorrect, I do think that ignoring things from other martial arts that could be useful - like, for example, certain elements of punching - is also somewhat short sighted. Obviously you'll never be able to take boxing style punches and just copy and paste them into muay Thai, but it doesn't mean that there's nothing of value from boxing in Muay Thai, which I think is somewhat reflected by the number of great nak muay who are also champion level boxers, like Somrak and Samart.

@AndyMaBobs in your article, you mention that Cotto's jab and and left hook look almost the same how he fires them. Could you elaborate a little more? Does he extend the arm like he would for a jab and then turn the elbow over, or is there more too it?

Sure. When Cotto starts his hook he doesn't tend to chamber it, a lot of fighters with move their lead shoulder to the back, to feint a rear straight and then follow up with the hook. He starts his hook by extending his arm out like its a jab for the first millisecond, often with a sharp jolt forward that resembles his step jab and then he turns his arm over into a left hook.

Also, I agree with you, no way are the Thai's doing their own sport wrong, but this article isn't aimed at Thais, and when farang who are looking to get into muay thai are looking to improve their boxing - they always look at it as punching more, and not boxing scientifically, which I point out is something that Thais tend to do, although I do think they can often be defensively irresponsible.

@ShadowoftheSun

I agree with you, when it's suggested like that. I even use some elements from TKD in my fights, and talked about it here, even give it as an option when someone is asking about techniques... But that doesn't mean I'm gonna try and convince a vet Kru, that my style should be used and taught... Or tell a beginner he should train that way...

And specially in this forum, where it seems that everyone has an opinion on how MT should be (others with some good arguments, others with nonsenses), I wanted to be the one that says, don't look down on the basics, don't disregard techniques that have been tested again and again in the ring... There is a reason why MT is the way it is...
If that makes me an ass, or a troll, so be it...

I think it's a fair opinion to think Muay Thai is fine how it is, and I don't actually think you're a troll, I know we're just poking fun at each other. The only thing I'd really disagree with you on in terms of punching and muay thai, is that I think you sometimes downplay the impact boxing has on a lot of Thais games. I wouldn't personally say that it's just guys like Samart who are good at boxing, but even fighters like Sittichai, most of the Sitmonchai gym and 13 coins.

And for me, in my experience at least keeping a tighter boxing guard (keep in mind I've actually trained Muay Thai more than I've trained boxing) has kept me safe from elbows/high kicks etc.


I haven't been happier since being a kid :D it's finally going to be here!

It won't be the only one I do either. :D

Fabio Pinca is supposed to fight Buakaw this December, and most comments Im reading are favoring Pinca which says a lot.

I was actually supposed to do a breakdown of that fight before it happened, and analyse how their styles would match up - and I favour Pinca too. I've still got my notes on it, although I don't know if I will actually write the piece.

The fight is meant to take place under full Thai rules and Buakaw has a real issue with elbows. He got beat up bad by Khayal Dzhaniev's step in-left elbows, and Fabio Pinca is actually pretty good at those type of elbows and pretty adept at switching stances. It's not really relevant to this thread at all but just my thoughts.
 
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It's not really relevant to this thread at all

He was probably givin an example to eternaldarkness of good MT fighters from France.

@eternaldarkness

Sorry man if i came a bit strong...Still, I don't understand what that's has to do with our discussion :

"i am boxer and wrestler also and i can guarantee that no one is easer to double leg than a thai fighter standing on their back leg looking to check kicks."

Yeah ok, and he would loose against a tennis player if they played tennis... We are not discussin MMA or self defense... We are talking MT techniques within MT rules...



@AndyMaBobs

We had that discussion many times before... I'm not against punching in MT. What I'm against is teaching beginners to build their game around punching, and specially punching tactics and techniques from boxing... Like long ass punching combos, peek-a-boo, Philly shell etc... They wont work for 99% of them, and it will be dangerous.
When they will be more experienced, they can do as they want. If they cross train with boxing, and they bring those techniques to MT, and make it work good, for them.

But when a beginner is coming here asking if he should use the Philly shield in MT, some people are saying sure. They tell him to try it, and watch some boxing tutorials on how to do it. And that the Thais mostly don't use it because they don't know how to properly fight in their own god damn sport...
And that pisses me of, and i go to the other extreme saying fak punches, fak boxing and fak j123...

I don't have a problem discussin it with you, and i enjoy it to be honest, but at some point you got to realize that I'm right, and better lookin too...
 
@AndyMaBobs

We had that discussion many times before... I'm not against punching in MT. What I'm against is teaching beginners to build their game around punching, and specially punching tactics and techniques from boxing... Like long ass punching combos, peek-a-boo, Philly shell etc... They wont work for 99% of them, and it will be dangerous.
When they will be more experienced, they can do as they want. If they cross train with boxing, and they bring those techniques to MT, and make it work good, for them.

But when a beginner is coming here asking if he should use the Philly shield in MT, some people are saying sure. They tell him to try it, and watch some boxing tutorials on how to do it. And that the Thais mostly don't use it because they don't know how to properly fight in their own god damn sport...
And that pisses me of, and i go to the other extreme saying fak punches, fak boxing and fak j123...

I don't have a problem discussin it with you, and i enjoy it to be honest, but at some point you got to realize that I'm right, and better lookin too...
Peekaboo and philly shell don't work well for Muay Thai, hell there's only really one guy that uses philly shell in MMA (stonewall is still the cooler name for the guard tho). That's why you wouldn't catch me doing "Mike Tyson, made for Muay Thai" :p

I must admit though, I haven't really seen people in f11 give outlandish advice like that

I agree though fak @j123, he's more handsome than all of us :(
 
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He was probably givin an example to eternaldarkness of good MT fighters from France.

@eternaldarkness

Sorry man if i came a bit strong...Still, I don't understand what that's has to do with our discussion :

"i am boxer and wrestler also and i can guarantee that no one is easer to double leg than a thai fighter standing on their back leg looking to check kicks."

Yeah ok, and he would loose against a tennis player if they played tennis... We are not discussin MMA or self defense... We are talking MT techniques within MT rules...



@AndyMaBobs

We had that discussion many times before... I'm not against punching in MT. What I'm against is teaching beginners to build their game around punching, and specially punching tactics and techniques from boxing... Like long ass punching combos, peek-a-boo, Philly shell etc... They wont work for 99% of them, and it will be dangerous.
When they will be more experienced, they can do as they want. If they cross train with boxing, and they bring those techniques to MT, and make it work good, for them.

But when a beginner is coming here asking if he should use the Philly shield in MT, some people are saying sure. They tell him to try it, and watch some boxing tutorials on how to do it. And that the Thais mostly don't use it because they don't know how to properly fight in their own god damn sport...
And that pisses me of, and i go to the other extreme saying fak punches, fak boxing and fak j123...

I don't have a problem discussin it with you, and i enjoy it to be honest, but at some point you got to realize that I'm right, and better lookin too...
fully appreciate what your saying. i spend a lot of time deliberately trying to stop using a lot of boxing traits when i'm training for mma as most of the aussie's on the mma scene have a more thai style than a boxing one. i agree completely with the philly shell thing too, that shit will get you killed in MT. i just got a bit defensive when i though you were knocking boxing. and as for getting jabbed using thai guard, most good thai fighters neutralise that shit pretty easily with leg kicks. it is a lot harder to neutralise kicks and knees with punches than the opposite. although it can be done if someone is a good enough puncher. even watched Khaosai Galaxy? khaosai and samart are definitely my favourite thai fighters if that gives you any idea of the style i most appreciate.
 
Sure. When Cotto starts his hook he doesn't tend to chamber it, a lot of fighters with move their lead shoulder to the back, to feint a rear straight and then follow up with the hook. He starts his hook by extending his arm out like its a jab for the first millisecond, often with a sharp jolt forward that resembles his step jab and then he turns his arm over into a left hook.

Also, I agree with you, no way are the Thai's doing their own sport wrong, but this article isn't aimed at Thais, and when farang who are looking to get into muay thai are looking to improve their boxing - they always look at it as punching more, and not boxing scientifically, which I point out is something that Thais tend to do, although I do think they can often be defensively irresponsible.



I think it's a fair opinion to think Muay Thai is fine how it is, and I don't actually think you're a troll, I know we're just poking fun at each other. The only thing I'd really disagree with you on in terms of punching and muay thai, is that I think you sometimes downplay the impact boxing has on a lot of Thais games. I wouldn't personally say that it's just guys like Samart who are good at boxing, but even fighters like Sittichai, most of the Sitmonchai gym and 13 coins.

And for me, in my experience at least keeping a tighter boxing guard (keep in mind I've actually trained Muay Thai more than I've trained boxing) has kept me safe from elbows/high kicks etc.




It won't be the only one I do either. :D



I was actually supposed to do a breakdown of that fight before it happened, and analyse how their styles would match up - and I favour Pinca too. I've still got my notes on it, although I don't know if I will actually write the piece.

The fight is meant to take place under full Thai rules and Buakaw has a real issue with elbows. He got beat up bad by Khayal Dzhaniev's step in-left elbows, and Fabio Pinca is actually pretty good at those type of elbows and pretty adept at switching stances. It's not really relevant to this thread at all but just my thoughts.
do you think the elbow issue is from too many years in K-1?
 
He was probably givin an example to eternaldarkness of good MT fighters from France.

@eternaldarkness

Sorry man if i came a bit strong...Still, I don't understand what that's has to do with our discussion :

"i am boxer and wrestler also and i can guarantee that no one is easer to double leg than a thai fighter standing on their back leg looking to check kicks."

Yeah ok, and he would loose against a tennis player if they played tennis... We are not discussin MMA or self defense... We are talking MT techniques within MT rules...



@AndyMaBobs

We had that discussion many times before... I'm not against punching in MT. What I'm against is teaching beginners to build their game around punching, and specially punching tactics and techniques from boxing... Like long ass punching combos, peek-a-boo, Philly shell etc... They wont work for 99% of them, and it will be dangerous.
When they will be more experienced, they can do as they want. If they cross train with boxing, and they bring those techniques to MT, and make it work good, for them.

But when a beginner is coming here asking if he should use the Philly shield in MT, some people are saying sure. They tell him to try it, and watch some boxing tutorials on how to do it. And that the Thais mostly don't use it because they don't know how to properly fight in their own god damn sport...
And that pisses me of, and i go to the other extreme saying fak punches, fak boxing and fak j123...

I don't have a problem discussin it with you, and i enjoy it to be honest, but at some point you got to realize that I'm right, and better lookin too...
maybe people say to give the philly shell a go in MT because they are sadists? just a though.
 
fully appreciate what your saying. i spend a lot of time deliberately trying to stop using a lot of boxing traits when i'm training for mma as most of the aussie's on the mma scene have a more thai style than a boxing one. i agree completely with the philly shell thing too, that shit will get you killed in MT. i just got a bit defensive when i though you were knocking boxing. and as for getting jabbed using thai guard, most good thai fighters neutralise that shit pretty easily with leg kicks. it is a lot harder to neutralise kicks and knees with punches than the opposite. although it can be done if someone is a good enough puncher. even watched Khaosai Galaxy? khaosai and samart are definitely my favourite thai fighters if that gives you any idea of the style i most appreciate.

@eternaldarkness

No problem man, but I still don't understand your point... This thread is about insulting j123, what does Muay Thai have anything to do with it?

Can't say i have really watched/studied Khaosai Galaxy... But i know his style.
 
@eternaldarkness

No problem man, but I still don't understand your point... This thread is about insulting j123, what does Muay Thai has anything to do with it?

Can't say i have really watched/studied Khaosai Galaxy...
when you said that thai was perfect i thought you were talking about as an overall standup style, in which case i disagree, but thai is the perfect style for MT obviously. a westerner trying to criticise MT is like going to france and trying to tell them how to cook. i highly recommend checking out Khaosai though, one of the biggest punchers P4P, that i have seen i would think. there is not a lot of his thai fights available though mostly boxing fights. he is the first fighter i usually reference when some clown says thai fighters aren't any good at punching. the reason you don't see more thai fighters with better hands is they tend to cross over to boxing if they show good punching ability, as the money is a lot better.
 
do you think the elbow issue is from too many years in K-1?

Yeah I'm more than willing to bet that's the issue - I've not seen anything from his Pre-k1 career either so for all I know it could have been a weak point for him then.

Also he Khayal threw a southpaw left elbow all that distance from orthodox, it's a lot of ground to travel and as a result it hits really hard. It's also an unusual move to see someone be so good at so I could see it catching a lot of people of.
 
No problem man, but I still don't understand your point... This thread is about insulting j123, what does Muay Thai have anything to do with it[/USER]
Good luck bud
 
And that there is the key point. The very tight high guard used in boxing works well in boxing for dealing with punches. In MT there's also kicks, knees, and elbows to deal with and this changes many things. Having the arms tight & close to the head leaves no room for absorbing kicks, an opponent could simply round kick the arms right into your face and hurt you anyway or even break the arm like Singdam did to a Chinese opponent.

Not to mention the body is left open for kicks & knees, and guess what scores highest in MT? Oh. Yeah. That's a slight problem isn't it? Thus the high guard needs to be adapted for use in MT, the arms are further from the head to give room for blocking & absorbing kicks and a bit lower so they can work together with leg checks to defend kicks to the body.

I think it depends a tremendous amount on the range you're fighting at. If you're at kicking range, a tight high guard doesn't make a lot of sense. You're obstructing your vision and leaving your body open without much if any gain, and you're probably just going to get kicked to death. In the clinch, obviously you want to be clinching. But if you are in punching range, a tight high guard that gives you both good defense and the chance to effectively fire back while remaining defensively responsible is useful. You can argue that not a ton of time in MT is spent in true punching range and I think you'd be right, but within that range I think it's a good guard to have. Here's an example:



So this is a fun fight because Nong O just floors Pakorn a little before the 7:00 mark off a caught kick, and Pakorn knowing he needs a KO or at least knockdown to win just starts going after Nong O mostly with hands. You can see Nong O go between the tight high guard and longer guard, and when he fails to transition to the tight guard quickly enough in punching range Pakorn lights him up. Now, it's an unusual fight in that they spent a great deal of time in the pocket trading punches, but I think it's a salient example of why it's a good guard to have.
 
@Uchi Mata

But if you are in punching range, a tight high guard that gives you both good defense and the chance to effectively fire back while remaining defensively responsible is useful.

The problem of the tight high guard in the punching range, is that it's make a lot harder for you to use elbows, and will give you difficulty with your entry/deny the clinch. It's useful against punches, but a loose high guard, will give you better control for the clinch, and gives you weapons to fire back (the elbows).
And it's a lot easier to alternate different types of guard that way. From loose high to long guard for example.

If your opponent use long 1 or 2s it can be a very useful tool like in that fight:



Or as you said, if the opponent is desperate for a Knock Down, using mostly punches...
 
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