Cuban Boxing Fundamentals

[Sinister]

I take it US gyms dont have these large sparring sessions with multiple matches going on unless it is a TMA gym. I remember TMAs will line up their students and have everyone spar at simultaneously. That way no one is singled out.

I can't speak on the context of what they're doing there, or for every U.S. Gym, but I've never seen it. I don't even do this, because our Gym is tiny and has no room. I think this was just used for the large session with the international guests. My gym only looks like this when I have a shitload of people all doing drills. However, sparring in the U.S. is definitely different than what they think of as "sparring"...I realized that after two of my guys sparred the #3 and #1 Amateurs in the World and they told the trainer they didn't want to come back to our Gym because they felt it was "too intense." I thought that odd because they're far more qualified than my guys were. But even Conlan agreed:

 

[Sinister]

I think I get what you mean. There is not real set standard. In fact, in the UK, Joe Calzaghe was trained by his father Enzo. Enzo has no boxing experience at all. I dont think he ever sparred either. I think he just watched a lot of boxing, and tried to impart knowledge to his son.

Yes, Same with Calvin Brock's Father...learned everything by VHS. But he made no bones about it and didn't advertise otherwise. In other words he never lied and wasn't a fraud, neither did Enzo. So I have a certain amount of respect for the brains of those men. Know what else? They each trained more than one World Champion. So they were innovative and onto something, if they would have done the apprenticeship as I did, and gotten the background and pedigree, they would have become legends. Only because of the prestige that brings.

But this wasn't always the case. At one point the U.S. absolutely had wizard-like trainers. Guys like Whitey Ensault (who built Willie Pastrano and Ralph Dupas), Tony Canzoneri's trainer (whose name escapes me), Blackburn...whose methods were so good even Joe Lous' sparring partners got much much better as fighters just being around it. Harry Wiley Sr., Ray Robinson's trainer. Who Muhammad Ali was so fond of (Ali hired him when he fought Jimmy Young, because Angelo Dundee was loyal to Young and cornered him against Ali...with Wiley Ali won) that he straight up TOLD Angelo Dundee that Wiley would be part of their team. Freddie Brown, who is the reason Roberto Duran learned how to jab and throw straight punches. So what happened? Long story short many of these wizards died without teaching their magic. AND, at the same time it became easier to become a trainer. A perfect storm of a Sport becoming vulnerable to being filled with bullshit, and having guys make their names and money off of athletic kids with mediocre skill getting hit in the head.

 

[William Huggins]

I think I get what you mean. There is not real set standard. In fact, in the UK, Joe Calzaghe was trained by his father Enzo. Enzo has no boxing experience at all. I dont think he ever sparred either. I think he just watched a lot of boxing, and tried to impart knowledge to his son.

You are correct, Enzo had no experience.....

 

[Sinister]

The World is full of instances where rudimentary amateurs did something great in a field of work or study...Boxing is no exception.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

The main difficulty is in people's hips being stiff...so the knees do the work. This is incorrect. Knees need to move eventually but only as a further facilitation of what the hips should be doing. Also incorrect upper-body positioning. Just today one of my students kept turning his face away from where the opponent would be, in other words his head would rotate with the shoulders. Nose needs to remain facing forward WITH the chin down.

But these are fairly remedial exercises. The Cubans and Russians have these motions built into bigger motions with a more direct function to fighting. So the students are learning A MOVE, the wouldn't identify it as a remedial way to condition the hips to facilitate slipping. Things like this are necessary because Westerners don't typically have the ability to do them easily (because we eradicated physical education in schools, what SHOULD be physical education, which devolved into games, which devolved into shit kids didn't want to do, which parents hated). Those of us who go to these lengths simply believe it's much easier to teach someone's body to do a thing as opposed to yelling at them to do a thing they're not capable of doing.

Due to my medical problems as a kid, I never took part in P.E. class and I went to the pool across the road from my school to swim to keep myself active. Last week I asked my friend who was having a lot of trouble with the tile exercise what actually happened in P.E. class and he said they did no physical conditioning at all, it was all warm up stretches and playing football/tennis etc. but no actual important exercises for building a healthier body.

So when they build them into bigger movements, have you got any examples of drills for them?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

What do you mean by US and UK have rag tag boxing training approaches?

Well say for example you go to the Repton boxing gym in London, you learn the Repton style. If you go to the Cuban Boxing Acadmey in North London, you learn the Cuban style. The US is the same, Johnny Tocco's doesn't teach the same as the Mongoose Gym for example. In Cuba it seems you just learn the cuban style regardless of what school you go to.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

As far as I'm aware, Papa Calzaghe did have boxing experience. He started at a similar time to his son, and eventually became the assistant instructor. I'm not sure of all the details but as far as I'm aware he did have experience, it's just his focus went straight into learning the craft and teaching rather than being a fighter himself.

 

[thugpoet]

Well say for example you go to the Repton boxing gym in London, you learn the Repton style. If you go to the Cuban Boxing Acadmey in North London, you learn the Cuban style. The US is the same, Johnny Tocco's doesn't teach the same as the Mongoose Gym for example. In Cuba it seems you just learn the cuban style regardless of what school you go to.

Generally speaking the USA is a melting pot. Back in the day we had regional styles. With the Internet and travel making the world closer thats kinda gone away.

 

[Sinister]

Well say for example you go to the Repton boxing gym in London, you learn the Repton style. If you go to the Cuban Boxing Acadmey in North London, you learn the Cuban style. The US is the same, Johnny Tocco's doesn't teach the same as the Mongoose Gym for example. In Cuba it seems you just learn the cuban style regardless of what school you go to.

In fairness, it's not a "style." Style is what you do with what you know. Rigondeaux and Dorticos come from the same system, and they fight different from each other. Luis Ortiz doesn't fight like Erislandy Lara. Yordenis Ugas doesn't fight like Gamboa. But what you do have there is a uniform system of fundamentals. In other words, they all receive the same tool box.

What you have in the U.S. is people arguing that things that kind of resemble wrenches ARE wrenches and should be in everyone's tool box. To the degree where our medal count for males has exponentially decreased. Females are doing fine. At one point our women's team had 5 World Champions and one two-time Gold Medalist

 

[AndyMaBobs]

In fairness, it's not a "style." Style is what you do with what you know. Rigondeaux and Dorticos come from the same system, and they fight different from each other. Luis Ortiz doesn't fight like Erislandy Lara. Yordenis Ugas doesn't fight like Gamboa. But what you do have there is a uniform system of fundamentals. In other words, they all receive the same tool box.

What you have in the U.S. is people arguing that things that kind of resemble wrenches ARE wrenches and should be in everyone's tool box. To the degree where our medal count for males has exponentially decreased. Females are doing fine. At one point our women's team had 5 World Champions and one two-time Gold Medalist

Yeah, it's hard to properly explain what I mean but I do agree with you.

Out of interest would you say that amateur or professional is a better bench mark for what country has the best boxing? I get they're not entirely the same sport, but I am curious

 

[Sinister]

Yeah, it's hard to properly explain what I mean but I do agree with you.

Out of interest would you say that amateur or professional is a better bench mark for what country has the best boxing? I get they're not entirely the same sport, but I am curious

Definitely amateur, pro boxing is a hustle where you never know of what you're seeing is what you're seeing

 

[eternaldarkness]

One of the trainers at our Gym is "King" Arthur Williams. Arthur was trained, in his youth, by Roy Jones Sr. Roy had a total of 4 fighters who eventually became World Champions, albeit I don't think any were Professionals under him. So he's got a fairly solid resume. I once asked Arthur about what it was like training with him and this is what he said:

"Yeah Roy was good, he had some good fighters and did a lot of good things. But I also think he used to look at too many karate movies or somethin'. He was always bringin' weird shit to the Gym to try to hit us with."

absolutely cracked me up.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

More while punching seems like a big teaching point in former Soviet Bloc countries, more so than Cuba:

 

[AndyMaBobs]

More while punching seems like a big teaching point in former Soviet Bloc countries, more so than Cuba:

that side step video is a fantastic one that I incorporated into my training a few weeks back

 

[eternaldarkness]

Definitely amateur, pro boxing is a hustle where you never know of what you're seeing is what you're seeing

is this because in the pro ranks assets like toughness, power and endurance become more important, taking a bit of shine off technique?

 

[Ilk]

More while punching seems like a big teaching point in former Soviet Bloc countries, more so than Cuba:

That is what I was saying. I am from Bulgaria. Not exactly an Soviet country but we were like a brother and sister. Both of my boxing coaches have passed trough the Soviet system and have been national amateur fighters. I can recognise the same fundamentals.

Definitely using more steps than hips for punching. Shoulder pulling is another. And lastly that movements are taught as a combination not single move. That actually confused me a lot when I was changing from dutch kickboxing.

When I post a vid here I am usually told to use the hips more. While coaches want me to use the hips at bare minimum. Using the power of the steps(when moving and punching), quads(for body shots and head movement) and calfs (to rise up when static punching especially in the jab and left hook if you want to add power).

 

[Sinister]

is this because in the pro ranks assets like toughness, power and endurance become more important, taking a bit of shine off technique?

No, it's because pro records can be manufactured. A fighter can be very rudimentary but with a very shiny record. As I said , a hustle

 

[eternaldarkness]

No, it's because pro records can be manufactured. A fighter can be very rudimentary but with a very shiny record. As I said , a hustle

kinda like 97% of australian boxers. it's a shame how shitty the standard of boxing is in australia these days, considering some of the fighters we had in the past. i'm disappointed to say your amateurs have a lot better skills than most of the pros in australia these days.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

No, it's because pro records can be manufactured. A fighter can be very rudimentary but with a very shiny record. As I said , a hustle

I suppose as well that the professionals who look the best will usually be the one backed by a big american promotion with all the money, glitz and glamour to make them look good as well