Dear Karate Combat - Why It Doesn't Work

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by AndyMaBobs, Apr 20, 2018.

  1. biscuitsbrah

    biscuitsbrah Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2013
    Messages:
    6,591
    Likes Received:
    2,282
    Never heard of Karate Combat. Just how big is this org really?
     
    shincheckin likes this.
  2. shinkyoku

    shinkyoku Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    2,753
    Likes Received:
    469
    its brand new and still forming. So it is tiny. Actually, it is still too small to even rate as "tiny".
     
  3. Silver tongue samurai

    Silver tongue samurai Ronin

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2017
    Messages:
    699
    Likes Received:
    603
    Location:
    ON, Canada
    you look nothing like John Marston...i feel gypped
     
  4. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,610
    Likes Received:
    1,857
    its lamer than a karate action movie
     
  5. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,443
    Likes Received:
    2,052
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    Man, I thought I had a likeness!

    NGL I was wondering whether or not to wear sleeves because of my thin ass arms - had to show that photograph just so that I didn't look like a TOTAL dweeb :p
     
  6. Silver tongue samurai

    Silver tongue samurai Ronin

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2017
    Messages:
    699
    Likes Received:
    603
    Location:
    ON, Canada
    No worries man your accent makes up for any dweebness that could have come through haha. You seem like a pretty cool guy though, and i love cinema so im subbing haha
     
    AndyMaBobs likes this.
  7. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,554
    Likes Received:
    2,672
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    But, it is precisely that very fact that makes it one of the most useful fighting techniques.

    This wrinkle to the clinch game is something many highly successful boxers do very well, and is one of the most useful things you can learn how to do from boxing; every time a pugilist or ducks under to dodge a blow and/or enter the clinch, that can be exactly your cue in MMA or fighting in general to... dodge their blow and enter the clinch.

    A cripsy double leg is one of the most simple, reliable, and effective counters to an opponent looking to step in with a heavy shot. Even though there are no takedowns in boxing, the form is so effective they participate in it anyways; virtuous practitioners naturally converging on useful modalities even independently of each other.


    On the subject of the thread... to be honest, i actually enjoyed watching the Gustavo/Agayev match.

    This may seem surprising, but i actually like point fighting, as both a training and competitive modality. One of the most well known and well respected combat sports on the planet is a point fighting style even. Namely, olympic boxing.

    I don't think it is coincidental that several of the greatest all time greats in recent years, such as Andre Ward, or Floyd Mayweather, or Vasyl Lomachenko, were also highly successful in the amateur style. It is easy to imagine ways in which you can do point fighting wrong, but the essential nature of such a structure, i think, is valuable and can be used to target valuable habits.

    There is potential i do think here, for this rule-set to fill a niche, that 'missing link' which coheres striking in neutral and takedowns in neutral into an organic whole. Or basically, how to have MMA stand up, without actually being MMA? No major combat sport heretofore really provides this. Muay thai comes close but the scoring criteria doesn't really incentivize or place great importance on the takedown aspect. San shou could have been this, but their rule-set has become increasingly overwrought and restrictive over the years, and in any case it simply hasn't really caught on bigly anyways.

    I enjoy thinking about how agents may adapt to certain systems or rule-sets resulting in certain behaviors, and the way i see it, one way you could swing this would be to approach it in an angle that would also riff off of the point fighting systems these guys would be familiar with.

    Some hypothetical motions towards a 'holistic neutral game' ruleset; the usual method of victory shall be 'first to X' number of points, or 'sets'. For now, lets say 10, but it may be more or less as desired. The manner in which one may score a point and reset shall be; the opponent touching any part outside the boundary; the opponent touching any part besides the feet onto the ground; landing three uninterrupted strikes on the opponent in a row without answer. Total victory by KO or sub is also in effect (a sub under such a ruleset may not be a likely method of victory, but simply having the possibility open is important, and influences how the athletes will think and prepare and perform).

    To spice up the action and encourage more aretic displays of skill, you could add further 'total victory' criteria as well, such as; if the opponent touches down or goes out of bounds while in 'chancery', that is, while you have taken their back or put them in submission hold, then the match ends there by 'technical fall'. This solves the potential gamesmanship issue of people 'escaping' a potential sub by scoring on themselves to reset, while also further encouraging performances like you're an action movie star, such as earth's greatest living martial artist, Sensei Steven Seagull. (Also in yielding applications to resolving physical altercations in less escalatory matters, but hey.)

    Examples of being 'in chancery' would be things such as, a front headlock or chinstrap grip, a double wrist lock/kimura grip, a standing arm triangle grip, a waki-gatame/strait arm-lock takedown, or a wristlock turn over. 'Taking the back' here means both head and chest behind the opponents shoulder with a bodylock grip, or a seat belt grip, or a merkle grip.

    Another criteria could be, starting at three completed sets onwards, or at 30 or more total strikes together landed, whosoever has a 50% or more differential in strikes landed, takes the match there by 'technical knockout'. This would help further reenforce/incentivize intellectual banging while also in the context of takedown work.

    There's plenty of ways you can do it differently here too, to open or emphasize different things; such as voiding the points by striking altogether and just having points by takedowns with strikes legal, along with the total victory criteria; or, by shifting scoring a point from touch down to scoring a point by hold down, for anywhere between 3 to 30 seconds, during which time you may also strike, and/or which a technical fall may be scored by putting them in chancery within a short period of touch down (like 3 to 5 seconds say).
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
    AndyMaBobs likes this.
  8. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,443
    Likes Received:
    2,052
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    Thank you!
     
  9. AshiharaFan

    AshiharaFan Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    2,620
    Likes Received:
    1,370
    Location:
    Far Down The Rabbit Hole
    It may be useful from the standpoint that it allows them to avoid a blow to the face, but it's useless from the standpoint that it interrupts and forestalls an already unexciting match to people who prefer action.

    The two facts that 1) all but one of them (that I can recall) are inexperienced at wrestling and 2) clinch fighting is against the rules Is what makes these matches look like a cross between typical point fighting and amateurish brawling. If the rules allowed clinch fighting (and the competitors actually knew how to fight in the clinch) I might see things differently.
     
  10. NAKMUAY18

    NAKMUAY18 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    2,563
    Likes Received:
    440
    I have no problem with the camera angles, it “sports entertainment”! It’s fun, a little different, why not.
    Maybe have a a sports feed with standard angles and an action move feed though.
    If anything, Just dump the takedowns. Maybe give points for avoiding strikes if you want to make it more point style
     
  11. rmongler

    rmongler Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,554
    Likes Received:
    2,672
    Location:
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    I dunno; from my perspective, that is a form of action.
     
  12. Hotora86

    Hotora86 by armbar

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    10,429
    Likes Received:
    11,230
    Location:
    Land of Po
  13. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,443
    Likes Received:
    2,052
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    I must admit, it slipped my mind because you don't feel the need to remind people of your karate roots with your avatar :p
     
  14. Odysseus

    Odysseus White Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    100
    I would be interested to see some Kyokushin and PKA guys (ones that know how to box) enter the mix. Most of these current Karate Combat fighters come from a point fighting background, but I feel the full contact styles are very underrepresented. Bringing in fighters from these styles could make for some very exciting additions to the roster.
     
  15. Hotora86

    Hotora86 by armbar

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    10,429
    Likes Received:
    11,230
    Location:
    Land of Po
    The joke may just be going over my head but... I've got the Shotokan Karate crest in my av. And @Tayski (whom you had mentioned) has some Thai dude and is a MT nuthugger. :p
     
  16. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    18,294
    Likes Received:
    3,479
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Yes, but @AndyMaBobs is British, which I didn't know, which means it's really classy porn.

    And henceforth I will read all his posts in a British accent, which means I will agree with him as no Americans can resist being convinced by a British accent. It's why I believe everything Michael Bisping says no matter how asinine.
     
    AndyMaBobs and Hotora86 like this.
  17. TheMachinegun12

    TheMachinegun12 White Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2017
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    24
    An example of effective karate vs muay thai

     
    Odysseus likes this.
  18. Tayski

    Tayski Stand-up Fighting

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,616
    Likes Received:
    1,210
    Location:
    Stockholm - Sweden
    I'm disappointed you don't recognize who's in my avatar.

    Also, I'm not a MT nutthugger.
     
  19. Hotora86

    Hotora86 by armbar

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    10,429
    Likes Received:
    11,230
    Location:
    Land of Po
    That's because I'm not a MT nutthugger. :p
    j/k, please do tell who that is?
     
  20. Tayski

    Tayski Stand-up Fighting

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,616
    Likes Received:
    1,210
    Location:
    Stockholm - Sweden
    There's a difference between being open to other martial arts and their fighters, and being a "nuthugger" ;)

    "I have not permitted myself to be ignorant of any martial art that exists. Why? Such ignorance is a disgrace to someone who follows the path of the martial arts." - Mas Oyama

    It's Sombat Banchamek in my avatar, also known as Buakaw.

     
    Hotora86 likes this.

Share This Page