Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 9] - BJJ during the Vale Tudo Era...

[gono btw]

Today :

MYTH: BJJ was already a dominant Martial Art prior to UFC 1, in Brazil, during the Vale Tudo Era..

In other words: Nobody knew how to deal with BJJ prior to the 1st UFC events...

Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:

Spoiler: DECONS

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-35-the-samurai-the-missin´-link-in-bjj-evolution.3994271/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...d-to-face-2-opponents-in-the-ring-33.3924541/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...enio-tadeu-climb-back-in-the-ring-34.3933271/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-ufc-1-was-really-born-41.3964531/

The truth is that, between the 1930s & 1980s, BJJ was not that dominant in Brazil...

Note: I wont use the Carlos Gracie vs. Manoel Rufino dos Santos fight here [1931], since
it was a controversial one (Rufino won when Carlos didnt want to get back to the ring).

Between the 1930s and the 1950s, George Gracie had:

vs Roberto Ruhmann: 1W-3L
vs Grillo: 1W-1L
vs Yassuiti Ono: 1W-1L
vs Budip: 0W-1L
vs Jack Russel: 1W-2L
vs Orlando Americo da Silva "Dudu": 0W-1L-1D
vs Lino: 0W-1L
vs Geo Omori: 2 Draws
vs Wladek Zbyszko: 1L
vs Takeo Yano : 1W-1L-4 draws

Spoiler: George vs Yano

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-takeo-yano-george-gracie-both-went-lights-out-22.3881991/

He also lost a fight vs Master Tatu (Luta Livre founder):

Spoiler

Euclydes Pereira [Luta Livre/Karate/Boxe/Capoeira] & Ivan Gomes [Luta Livre/Judo]
can be both considered the Gracies´ nemeses.

Euclydes Pereira :

- 6 fights with Waldemar Santana [adopted by the Gracies]:
6 W & 1 D

- 1 fight with Carlson Gracie :
1 W




Ivan Gomes :

- 10 fights with Waldemar Santana:
6 W - 4 D

- 1 fight with Carlson Gracie:
1 Draw

Ivan Gomes, after his epic fight with Carlson Gracie [draw] in 1963, joined him and learnt about BJJ (promising to never challenge him again).

B4 meetin´ him, Ivan was trainin´ his ground game with Agatangelo & José Maria Freire (Zé Maria), former student of Nilo Veloso (a George Gracie´s student).
But it was Osmar Mousinho “Biuce” who introduced Ivan to JJ.

That said, he was pretty well-rounded, strikin´& wrasslin too, and had a legit submission game (deadly heel hooks> Carlson even said once that he believed he was the creator of this technique...)
He competed in Vale Tudo and Boxing too.

Overall, Luta Livre dudes like Ivan Gomes and Euclydes Pereira were dominating them.

In 1988, Eugenio Tadeu challenged Royler behind closed doors, and it was a competiive bout,a draw...there was a weight difference, indeed.. I would say Eugenio was a lil bit more dominant...


Then u have the original famous Challenge Luta Livre vs BJJ 1984:
(with a Gracie student Referee)

Eugenio Tadeu [Luta Livre] destroyed Renan Pitanguy [BJJ]
Inácio Aragão [BJJ] defeated Bruce Lucio [Luta Livre] (RNC)
Draw between Marco Huas [Luta Livre] and Pinduka [BJJ]... You can watch the fight and try to decide who won... Both claimed victory...(Pinduka said under Modern Rules, he would have won, while Ruas claimed that he inflicted more damage from the bottom)

Spoiler: Pinduka vs Huas

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...d-to-face-2-opponents-in-the-ring-33.3924541/

Marcelo Behring [BJJ] destroyed Flavio Molina [MT>Luta Livre] (who was injured b4 the fight, knee)

The 2nd challenge was more lopsided though, I agree ...

Obs> the fight between Eugenio and Wallid was controversial though:
BJJ students at ringside didnt let Eugenio go back to the ring, according to Eugenio.(at that time, crowds were very pro-Gracies and even the ref was more often than not a GJJ student)

Spoiler: Tadeu vs Wallid

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...enio-tadeu-climb-back-in-the-ring-34.3933271/

[Modern] Fights - BJJ vs Luta Livre Rivalry:

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLEBvOweFi8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o0AmeFEGzg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4QpA3Vniyw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsQ0HtXTxbI

Spoiler: 'DECONS' Threads

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-21-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/

 

[The Reed]

Gives me more respect for Royce.
The wrong BJJ guy would have lost in the early UFC's.

 

[gono btw]

Gives me more respect for Royce.
The wrong BJJ guy would have lost in the early UFC's.

Im a Hoyce fan too, and it´s true, Hoyler & Henzo wouldnt have had that kind of success in the early ones...

Hespect.

 

[Emporio Alnino]

love these threads dude.

 

[gono btw]

love these threads dude.

 

[InfinityLens]

There was an organized MMA scene before Pancrase 1 and we know so little about it. There was stuff in the USA, Japan, and Brazil.

Wish someone would document it all.

 

[gono btw]

There was an organized MMA scene before Pancrase 1 and we know so little about it. There was stuff in the USA, Japan, and Brazil.

Wish someone would document it all.

The truth is that the Vale Tudo scene was slowly re-starting in the 1970s...
After the burst in the 1950s-60s, it suffered a severe crisis in the 1970s.

That´s when they managed to promote the BJJ vs Karate challenge, with Rolls vs Paulo do Karate, among other fights...

Then, the scene grew up till the Rickson vs Rei Zulu fights, and then the BJJ vs Luta Livre Challenge, in the early 1980s.

But technically, it was still Black Belts vs Black Belts in streetfights, since the events were pretty scare.

 

[Mike K.O]

It's not really about the style, but more about the fighter. Gracies did some shady shit back in the day, which makes some of those challenges a bit suspect to me.
Btw, keep these threads comin
They're great

 

[gono btw]

It's not really about the style, but more about the fighter. Gracies did some shady shit back in the day, which makes some of those challenges a bit suspect to me.
Btw, keep these threads comin
They're great

Some of these challenges were ridiculous (Hickson vs Duarte on the beach...), some were legit (Hoyler vs Tadeu / BJJ vs Luta Livre), and some were suspect (Hickson vs Rei Zulu > Special Rules on the ground / Helio Gracie vs. Masahiko Kimura fight in 1951:at that time they insisted on using soft mats to avoid injuries related to judo throws during the fight.)

 

[Stoic1]

Thank you, TS!

I love watching the old stuff. Back when headbutts and no stand ups made it savage.

 

[InfinityLens]

So how did BJJ become dominant? Where the Gracies just rich and marketed themselves better?

 

[Nueman43]

So how did BJJ become dominant? Where the Gracies just rich and marketed themselves better?

I think their marketing certainly helped a lot. I think the UFC drove a lot of increase as well. But like most boons, the UFC gave and took away. The BJJ became less of a Gracie controlled institution, and morphed into a sport with several sub-styles.

 

[gono btw]

So how did BJJ become dominant? Where the Gracies just rich and marketed themselves better?

Their rivals (Euclides Pereira and Ivan Gomes) got old, and the new Luta Livre generation was not as good on the ground. they were more focussed on MT. That´s when it shifted in the 1980s.

 

[seau45]

I think Luta Livre and GJJ were very close in terms of effectiveness, which is why you saw individual standouts that could defeat their GJJ or LL rivals. The Gracies certainly marketed it better and seemed to have more practitioners, and that only grew as LL declined in popularity. That being said, both LL and GJJ were miles ahead of any TMA we were doing in America at the time, no one had combined wrestling and boxing or worked on submissions nearly as much. I suspect the Gracies thought challenge matches here in the US were a breeze compared to back home!

 

[gono btw]

I think Luta Livre and GJJ were very close in terms of effectiveness, which is why you saw individual standouts that could defeat their GJJ or LL rivals. The Gracies certainly marketed it better and seemed to have more practitioners, and that only grew as LL declined in popularity. That being said, both LL and GJJ were miles ahead of any TMA we were doing in America at the time, no one had combined wrestling and boxing or worked on submissions nearly as much. I suspect the Gracies thought challenge matches here in the US were a breeze compared to back home!

The Luta Livre school had no access to politicians, media and the middle/upper class ...

 

[InfinityLens]

The Luta Livre school had no access to politicians, media and the middle/upper class ...

If someone can get some LL people they can play on this in a rich v poor type storyline.

 

[gono btw]

If someone can get some LL people they can play on this in a rich v poor type storyline.

This rivalry is history now...

 

[carlos cadona]

The Gracie's also had a tendency to avoid fights they weren't 100% sure they could win, most famously how Rickson refused to fight Bas Rutten, Sakuraba, and Marco Ruas.

 

[InfinityLens]

This rivalry is history now...

Yeah but there is always someone willing to dig stuff up from yesteryear if they think it can sell.

 

[gono btw]

Yeah but there is always someone willing to dig stuff up from yesteryear if they think it can sell.

2 late, Im afraid... The hate is gone, they cross-train together now.. Ever since Marco Huas got his BJJ BB from Joe Moreira...