DeMarcus Cousins signs with the Warriors

Discussion in 'Sports Bar' started by Tramero, Jul 2, 2018.

  1. TheComebackKid

    TheComebackKid Titanium Belt

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    Kevin Love's dramatic decrease in production once moving to the Cavs hurts the narrative surrounding Lebron's legacy more than anything. Kevin Love is just another player in a long line of good to great players who saw their numbers, reputations, and careers diminish playing in the Lebron James system. Love, Bosh, Thomas, Hood, Clarkson, ect.
     
  2. Madmick

    Madmick Scholar of Taghaza Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    No, it didn't.

    Lebron got a third ring, and brought the first to Cleveland in its history. It "hurt" Lebron's legacy? How? He has a consensus in the media (and among the general basketball fan community) as the 2nd greatest player of all time. Like I explained to you cans over half a decade ago, the talking heads only talked up Kobe because it was good for business, and that would go away the second he was out of the limelight, with a more realistic and grounded assessment of his legacy.

    Lebron is hated now, for what he did to the league, and the masses who used to sheepishly drink up ESPN roundtable opinions are suddenly thinking more critically, scrutinizing Lebron's achievements relative to his bubble in the East, and the fact that somewhere along his super-team evolution into what those talking heads told him he needed to be/do in order to be great he stopped making his teammates better, but it's laughable to assert it hurt his legacy while there are countless "MJ vs. Lebron: Who is GOAT?" articles running during the Finals.

    Certainly, like with Kobe, we'll get a more realistic assessment down the road, but Lebron's legacy has swollen proportional to the public's hatred of him. Paul Pierce has pointed out, this isn't about feelings, and what Lebron has been doing is playing the legacy game the way it's treated now. He's been smart. Meanwhile, Love...last time you saw a national commercial with him? Last time you saw Pepsi pushing Uncle Wes? He didn't even get a cameo:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Drew
    I'm sure he gets love in Cleveland, but nobody seems to care about him outside of it, anymore.

    Bosh's career visibility and legacy was wildly inflated by his time spent (and performance given) alongside Lebron. Only his absolute production took a hit. Staying in Toronto or going anywhere else to have his own team would have been a terrible decision for him.
     
  3. TheComebackKid

    TheComebackKid Titanium Belt

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    Every generationally great player and face of the league gets celebrated the most toward the end of the their career. That is when everything they do gets overly praised and all of their flaws get minimized. But then once they retire, recency bias dies down, and the media moves on to new players and new legacies then that great player starts an inevitable decline in regard and esteem. That is when not just their success but also their failures and flaws began to impact their legacy. I've seen this in the late 90s with Jordan, 2010-2012ish with Kobe and now we're seeing it with Lebron.

    For Kobe the criticisms that have surfaced since his retirement are his efficiency numbers, his lone MVP, and not being definitively ahead of Shaq and Duncan as the best player of the 2000s. For Lebron it's going to be that he made his teammates worse, could only play the Russell Westbrook style of basketball(albeit much better), played in a historically weak conference, played in an era of inflated statistics, had to franchise hop and form super teams in order to win, lost 6 times in the finals, choked in 2011, quick on his team multiple times, and could only win 3 titles in 20 years. And to top it off out of all the greats of his era he will have the least amount of rings. Kobe won 5, Duncan won 5, Wade has got 3, Durant should end up with at least 3 and Curry at least 4. He will also have a losing record in the finals against Durant, Curry, Duncan, and Dirk Nowitzki.

    Unless Lebron can squeeze out more titles in LA his legacy is not going to be that of the 2nd best player in history or the guy challenging Michael Jordan. No. He is going to be viewed as this era's Wilt Chamberlain. Which is still great but not quite the stature you and the media are giving him at the moment.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  4. kuromusha

    kuromusha LONZO LOOMS 2019

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    Only thing Ranch has over Degenerate is his shot. I guarantee you Degenerate wouldn't shoot fadeaways over Cliff Paul lmao
     
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  5. Madmick

    Madmick Scholar of Taghaza Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Are you for real? I taught this to you. You used to argue that the rhetoric surrounding Kobe was proportional to his career when it was his turn: you and many others on here. I told you Kobe wouldn't remain in Top 10's after he retired. #2. #3. #4. Ranker. Lebron the GOAT, oh my.

    You conformed to the wisdom of time, not me. Even Chris Broussard, Kobe fanatic, has dropped him to #7 below-- below Shaq! <Lmaoo>
    Comparing Lebron to Wilt (who played in the pre-merger era, and before the rise of ESPN and the global professional sporting culture) demonstrates how feeble your grasp of legacy and living retroactive perception remains.

    That era has already been relegated. Those players aren't going to rise in the ranks or esteem. They can only drop from here on out. Similarly, the kids who grew up watching Miami Lebron and on won't care about your Kobe who has already fallen out and below these guys. They don't see him as a forgotten case to restore. The way the entire pyramid is devised would have to radically change to drop Lebron below Wilt who has fewer rings, wasn't regarded wholesale as the best player of his generation/era, had inferior longevity, struggled to win a single ring as team alpha, and who-- above all else-- played in a far less competitive era. After all, his championship as MVP was in a league with just 10 teams.

    Lebron will drop below Kareem, undoubtedly, but that's the only one I can guarantee. Jordan and Kareem are set. Everybody else from #3-#8 are pretty up in the air and still vary a lot from list to list, except for Lebron who is in that current marketing hype-bubble at #2 (or GOAT for the supremely retarded).
     
  6. TheComebackKid

    TheComebackKid Titanium Belt

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    All I remember from you is you having a meltdown about saying you can make an argument for Dr. J over Hakeem(an argument I won btw). That's the only thing about our basketball discussions I remember. I do remember people shitting on Kobe and me correcting from time to time.

    So whatever it is you think I have learned it didn't come from you. I don't even remember them. But if you predicted something that has come true, kudos & congrats.

    I'm not suggesting he will be above or below Wilt Chamberlain only that he will be compared to him. He was an overwhelming physical presence and individually dominant. He stats were unmatched. But he couldn't win consistently. He had to franchise hop and team up with other superstars in order to get past the great teams of his era. That's Lebron.

    You guys have been trying to compare him to Jordan and Magic but at the end of the day his career mirrors that of Wilt Chamberlain more than anyone. Lebron has struggled to win as the Alpha just as much as Wilt.

    So after all that hot air you ultimately agree with me that Lebron is not and will not be considered the consensus 2nd best player ever, won't have his career compared to Jordan, and that he may even drop to the bottom half of the top 10 on many lists. Awesome. Remember tho, I taught you that.

    For me I have Lebron #4 and Wilt #8 based strictly on resume. If I take into account context, era, competition, eye test, circumstance, and other intangibles then Lebron is probably between 5-8.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  7. Madmick

    Madmick Scholar of Taghaza Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Well, your poor memory has failed you twice.

    No, I told you the future.
     
  8. TheComebackKid

    TheComebackKid Titanium Belt

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    Kudos & Congrats
     
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  9. Bamboozled

    Bamboozled Brown Belt

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    Kobe is top 5 all time, he is missing accolades because he isn't likable. That's my 2 cents.

    Also big men are in a different category, since everyone over looks them I just consider basketball to be most dominant vs best players.
     
  10. TheComebackKid

    TheComebackKid Titanium Belt

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    Lol, no it wasn't all on him. In 2017 Steph avg'd 26/8/9. Klay avg 16ppg. Draymond avg'd a double double and did all the little things he's known for. And Iggy guarded Lebron. KD coasted along with everyone else. No pressure. And Steph should have arguably won the FMVP this year.

    Steph is the heart of the team and he's the one that makes their offense run. Draymond is the alpha dog. KD is the most talented player but Steph and Dray create a nice little comfort zone for him to play in.

    Their shortest player is 6'6. They have plenty of length.

    Jordan had seasons with higher output and higher production than Lebron James, fact. Jordan faced Bird's Celtics and the Bad Boy Pistons with less talent than Lebron had this year. Then once he got just a little bit of talent around him he never lost again in his prime. Lebron needed full blown superteams and weak conferences to win. Another fact.

    It's not about stopping KD. It's about making him less efficient, hesitant and unsure, and reverting back to OKC iso ball that takes the Warriors out of their offense and rhythm. Duh. Ways the Bulls can do this is by being physical and challenging him for position before he even gets the ball. Play him aggressively, push him out of his go to areas, and challenge everything. You don't shut him down that way but you can slow him down. And then theres the mental game which is where Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman are uniquely equipped to take him completely out his game.

    There was a point during the Rockets series where KD was playing relatively well and scoring the ball but doing it inefficiently and the team wasn't playing well. Steve Kerr literally told him to play more like Michael Jordan lol.

    KD's post game is very good...one of the best. But it's not as good as Jordan's. Jordan had more technical moves and counters and superior timing and IQ. He was better at reading the defense, passing out of the post, fading away, spinning, driving, handling the double team, quicker, and whatever else you want to bring up. With Jordan's post game height didn't matter. He was going to torch you either way.



    KD's game just can't compare. And his resume, career, and stats reflect that.

    Durant is physically gifted but not as much as Jordan. Quickness, leaping ability, agility, explosion, body control, and strength all go to Jordan. All KD has on him is height and wing span. Objectively speaking Jordan is a much greater scorer than KD. Much higher scoring totals & avgs and then 10 scoring titles.

    He was a better leader because how much he got out of his teammates. It was the daily intensity in practice, the attention to detail, the tearing down and building up of his teammates over the course of a season. It was always leading by example which means not resting on defense and quiting in the huddle ala Lebron James. It's not letting your out of control point guard dominate the offense in crucial moments for 8 years while you stand to the side acting all timid and shy ala Kevin Durant.
     
  11. Bamboozled

    Bamboozled Brown Belt

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    Just no
     
  12. Madmick

    Madmick Scholar of Taghaza Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Neither Kobe nor Dr. J are Top 10 unless we're talking about the Ranker "fan vote" that also elected Yao as a starter to the All-Star team in a season where he didn't play a single game before the break.
     
  13. TheComebackKid

    TheComebackKid Titanium Belt

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    What is your top 10?
     
  14. Jack Handy jr

    Jack Handy jr Silver Belt

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    wait what?!?!?

    his attitude wont mesh he lasts till mid season....en shallah
     
  15. Madmick

    Madmick Scholar of Taghaza Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    1. Not Kobe or Dr. J
    2. Not Kobe or Dr. J
    3. Not Kobe or Dr. J
    4. Not Kobe or Dr. J
    5. Not Kobe or Dr. J
    6. Not Kobe or Dr. J
    7. Not Kobe or Dr. J
    8. Not Kobe or Dr. J
    9. Not Kobe or Dr. J
    10. Not Kobe or Dr. J
     
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  16. Bamboozled

    Bamboozled Brown Belt

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    I don't know, Kobe won a ship vs a team with 3 hall of famers and all he had was Lamar Odom and Gasol the bigger. Kobe could have accomplished more, that's what I think. I do think he's better than Magic Johnson. But Magic was better at the start of his career. I just value Kobe as a scorer more than I value Magic as a player. I do value LeBron more than Jordan though and rank him higher. So my personal preferences do come into play.
     
  17. Madmick

    Madmick Scholar of Taghaza Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    [​IMG]
     
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  18. ProBoxingInsidr

    ProBoxingInsidr Silver Belt

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    have any players flourished next to Lebron? i have seen more than a few people say Pippen owes a LOT of his HoF status to playing along MJ. Rodman came over and kept doing his thing, maybe even elevated. a lot of other role players would never have been known if they were not on those teams.

    Who elevated with James? Wade diminished (in part because of age). Bosh became much, much less. Love went from a huge star to a joke. kyrie got the hell out of town. james left a lot of players' careers for dead. 30 years from now all his teammates will be forgotten. to me that is a reflection on him. and not a good one.
     
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  19. Bamboozled

    Bamboozled Brown Belt

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    Hey man, LeBron is just better everywhere except that mid range J. I can't help it.
     

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