Diesel Breakdown | Controlling No Man's Land

[AndyMaBobs]

Hey guys, so in the last few weeks I've been pretty quiet on analysis. That's because I'm now the analyst for my long time MMA/Muay Thai gym Diesel. We're in a new, bigger location and we're now going to uploading regular video and written content for people overseas to learn a little bit from us and hopefully come train with us at the gym.

Here's an excerpt from the first Diesel Breakdown, we're talking about covering and controlling distance, something very basic, but still not always fully understood. Have a read, share it round and give me feedback on what you think!

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When fighting one of the most important things to understand is the controlling of distance and space. Regardless of your combat sport, the control of space is everything when it comes to dictating and forcing your kind of fight on an opponent.

At Diesel we have a concept called ‘No Man’s Land’. In World War I, soldiers would be based in trenches opposite wasteland, which they would have to cross by going ‘over the top’ in order to fight the enemy team.

While trench warfare is obviously impossible in a fist fight, there is a space between two fighters that needs to be crossed. Today we’re going to take a look at the fight between Holly Holm and Valentina Shevchenko at UFC on Fox 20. While not the most exciting fight in mixed martial arts history, it is the perfect fight to illustrate this philosophy.



When training we like to imagine a little circle of space on the floor between us and our opponent. Thankfully, through the magic of basic picture editing, for this lesson, you don’t have to imagine!



This space is what keeps you safe from your opponent; from this distance your opponent cannot hit you. This is the space that defensively, you want to maintain, and offensively you want to invade.



HOW HOLLY HOLM CONTROL’S DISTANCE
Against Ronda Rousey, Holly Holm had great success controlling No Mans’ Land. This was due to the former bantamweight champions inability to successfully pressure and cut of the cage in any meaningful way other than attacking on a straight line.

Here Rousey attempts to invade the space, only to be caught with a push kick to the knee. While a more ring craft savvy fighter would pressure and invade on diagonal angles to avoid this kicks, Rousey’s head first bull rushes lead to her taking a lot of damage that lead to her being knocked out.

But what happens when a battle for space is more evenly contested?


Full breakdown can be read here:
https://www.dieselgym.co.uk/diesel-breakdown-controlling-no-mans-land/

 

[j123]

Honda demonstrated excellent Muay Thai technique in that fight.

But that's just what happens when it faces boxing.

@ARIZE

 

[AndyMaBobs]

j123 didn't read the rest

 

[j123]

j123 didn't read the rest

I only read picture books!

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I only read picture books!

In all seriousness though, what are your thoughts?

 

[Sano]

Damn though it was going to be a breakdown of Dieselnoi !

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Damn though it was going to be a breakdown of Dieselnoi !

Gym is named after Dieselnoi! Will be doing a Dieselnoi breakdown for sure though! I promise.

 

[Sano]

Gym is named after Dieselnoi! Will be doing a Dieselnoi breakdown for sure though! I promise.

Nice. Looking forward to that, he's a legend. Nastiest clinch ever.

 

[j123]

In all seriousness though, what are your thoughts?

Honda wanted to bang, but Holly didn't "I do let you bang bro"

Seems more like classic MT tall-guy-tactics. This works when your opponent is very monolithic and playing a back, forward game. Someone who's very explosive, reactive, and plays with angles will be able to address it decently. Personally I'm not a fan of back stepping, its also because the guys I train with (along with myself) are very good at covering distance from miles away. Having used to be that way it didn't end well, even if I did end up doing well. My back was on the ropes/fence by the time I mounted offense back.

Taller fighter throwing an overhand from miles away?

Not good. inb4 expert. Lucky it wasn't a lean back to headkick

 

[Tayski]

Will be doing a Dieselnoi breakdown for sure though! I promise.

For some reason I have a feeling it will involve knees.

 

[Tayski]

Nice. Looking forward to that, he's a legend. Nastiest clinch ever.

I'm probably going to get shot by @AndyMaBobs for saying that, but for some reason I just see Diselnoi as a one trick poney who yes indeed was a monster of clinch + knees using his height at his advantage, but I never seen him demonstrating anything else in his fights. (apart from a few good teeps and roundhouse kicks)

For sure he's a great with all his victories and the way he'd grab hold of his opponents knee them like a mad man, but all his fights are this exact same story: move forward, close the distance, grab hold of head, throw tons of knees until opponent goes down. If they managed to break out of the clinch, then again close distance, grab the head, and knees.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I'm probably going to get shot by @AndyMaBobs for saying that, but for some reason I just see Diselnoi as a one trick poney who yes indeed was a monster of clinch + knees using his height at his advantage, but I never seen him demonstrating anything else in his fights.

For sure he's a great with all his victories and the way he'd grab hold of his opponents knee them like a mad man, but all his fights are this exact same story: move forward, close the distance, grab hold of head, throw tons of knees until opponent goes down. If they managed to break out of the clinch, then again close distance, grab the head, and knees.

I wouldn't go as far as shooting, but it's pretty wrong, maybe I'd throw a dagger or something.

I'd strongly recommend looking at the videos on youtube of him teaching his style. He had great counters to kicks and pretty formidable teeps that remain under rated. It's not so much that Dieselnoi was a one trick pony, so much as it was that he had a policy of not knowing his weapons unless he needed to - if he could back you up, he would and attack with knees, but it wasn't unusual to see him counter kicking.

The clinch is kind of the ground game in MMA though, the person who's better at fighting and maintaining the clinch wins. Nobody beats a clinch fighter unless they're very good at denying the clinch, which is part of why Sagat was able to beat Dieselnoi but Samart didn't.

I think his height is often overstated too, because of the myth that he never lost, he did and he lost more frequently than people would imagine, he wasn't a guy who just dominated with his size, he was a very technical clincher and fighter, who despite his height wasn't exactly a powerful guy - I'd argue that Sagat hit harder and was physically stronger.

 

[Tayski]

I wouldn't go as far as shooting, but it's pretty wrong, maybe I'd throw a dagger or something.

I'd strongly recommend looking at the videos on youtube of him teaching his style. He had great counters to kicks and pretty formidable teeps that remain under rated. It's not so much that Dieselnoi was a one trick pony, so much as it was that he had a policy of not knowing his weapons unless he needed to - if he could back you up, he would and attack with knees, but it wasn't unusual to see him counter kicking.

The clinch is kind of the ground game in MMA though, the person who's better at fighting and maintaining the clinch wins. Nobody beats a clinch fighter unless they're very good at denying the clinch, which is part of why Sagat was able to beat Dieselnoi but Samart didn't.

I think his height is often overstated too, because of the myth that he never lost, he did and he lost more frequently than people would imagine, he wasn't a guy who just dominated with his size, he was a very technical clincher and fighter, who despite his height wasn't exactly a powerful guy - I'd argue that Sagat hit harder and was physically stronger.

I'm not saying he wasn't good at anything else, but I probably watched all his fights which are available online (unfortunately maybe only a dozen if not less) and pretty much all of them were the exact same of him relying extensively on clinching and kneeing, with a few good teeps and kicks in the mix. If that's what won him his fights then of course it makes perfect sense for him to do so. I'm just saying that for me it's much less appealing and entertaining compared to watching fighters who seem a lot more complete using a lot of different techniques, for instance Samart.

His height is not overstated, he had a massive height and reach advantage in all his fights and while that's not the only reason he was so successful, it still massively contributed to it, probably even more so than it helped Semmy Schilt in K-1. When you're that much taller than your opponents and allowed to clinch with both hands and knee without break it's a massive advantage, you can't deny that.

 

[j123]

I wouldn't go as far as shooting, but it's pretty wrong, maybe I'd throw a dagger or something.

If only this were...

Spoiler

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I'm not saying he wasn't good at anything else, but I probably watched all his fights which are available online (unfortunately maybe only a dozen if not less) and pretty much all of them were the exact same of him relying extensively on clinching and kneeing, with a few good teeps and kicks in the mix. If that's what won him his fights then of course it makes perfect sense for him to do so. I'm just saying that for me it's much less appealing and entertaining compared to watching fighters who seem a lot more complete using a lot of different techniques, for instance Samart.

His height is not overstated, he had a massive height and reach advantage in all his fights and while that's not the only reason he was so successful, it still massively contributed to it, probably even more so than it helped Semmy Schilt in K-1. When you're that much taller than your opponents and allowed to clinch with both hands and knee without break it's a massive advantage, you can't deny that.

Y'see I don't agree with the Semmy argument either - because there were plenty of tall guys that failed to have the same success as him... in fact, there isn't another 7 foot tall fighter in kickboxing or MMA as successful as him, dude was just a smart fighter. As for as Dieselnoi though, the reason his height is overstated is people seem to think the stuff he was doing only worked because he was tall, but his approach to knees and mine are VERY similar, and I'm like 5'6/5'7.

Also height in the clinch doesn't = advantage, because a big objective to the clinch (if you're doing it properly) is to bore your head into the cheek bone, jaw and neck of your opponent, and get double underhooks to grind them out - which is MUCH easier to do when you're short. Using height to pull opponents into double collar tie is just amateur shit.

I think we may differ in opinion on the clinch in general (because I'm a boxer/clinch guy) so I won't get into whether its entertaining or not, but as far as him relying on it, it's not that he's relying on it, it's that the other guys can't stop him. It's like when Demien Maia or Khabib utterly dominate an opponent on the ground. When I hear 'rely' I normally think of it like: 'they rely on this because they aren't good everywhere else' - which might not be what you're saying.

Now I'm not saying that his unusual height wasn't a factor in his success, but he was far more technical than most let on.

 

[j123]

I'm like 5'6/5'7.

lol

Also height in the clinch doesn't = advantage, because a big objective to the clinch (if you're doing it properly) is to bore your head into the cheek bone, jaw and neck of your opponent, and get double underhooks to grind them out - which is MUCH easier to do when you're short. Using height to pull opponents into double collar tie is just amateur shit.

Agreed. Seen crappy coaches prevent people competing because they're so deathly afraid of height. Oh you're 160lbs @ 5'8, 8% bodyfat. Sorry your opponent is 155lbs @ 5'8.5. You're gonna get demolished in the clinch and hospitalized, you need to go down to 135lbs where you really belong. lololol. Straight up seen these guys try to kill their fighters with an unrealistic weight cut. "Oh there's one guy who's 6'4 at 155, therefore that division is full of them". Straight up retard-ville sometimes

There's a few guys here in the local circuit that are short for mai tai standards, but still wreck house in the clinch. And if it were true, all greco guys would be basketball players

Not to mention good luck on doing only the double collar on anyone with some semblance of clinching. It ain't happening. You gonna be eating elbows on your way in going at the normal way.

I think we may differ in opinion on the clinch in general (because I'm a boxer/clinch guy)

In other words, a heathen

 

[AndyMaBobs]

lol


Agreed. Seen crappy coaches prevent people competing because they're so deathly afraid of height. Oh you're 160lbs @ 5'8, 8% bodyfat. Sorry your opponent is 155lbs @ 5'8.5. You're gonna get demolished in the clinch and hospitalized, you need to go down to 135lbs where you really belong. lololol. Straight up seen these guys try to kill their fighters with an unrealistic weight cut. "Oh there's one guy who's 6'4 at 155, therefore that division is full of them". Straight up retard-ville sometimes

There's a few guys here in the local circuit that are short for mai tai standards, but still wreck house in the clinch. And if it were true, all greco guys would be basketball players

Not to mention good luck on doing only the double collar on anyone with some semblance of clinching. It ain't happening. You gonna be eating elbows on your way in going at the normal way.


In other words, a heathen

You know it baby.

As for what you're saying about height - that really doesn't surprise me at all. Clinch is so poorly understood, I took a pretty bad jab to the eye sparring the other day and my eye was watering too bad to keep it open, so I went into clinching, dude had about 4 inches on me, and I ragdolled him. I should point out that the sambo training definitely gives me an edge - but there's nothing really I do in terms of control that's not just... Thai clinching.

Generally I find the longer your arms the more trouble you're going to have from me, because there's more space left, more porous defence etc

 

[Tayski]

Y'see I don't agree with the Semmy argument either - because there were plenty of tall guys that failed to have the same success as him... in fact, there isn't another 7 foot tall fighter in kickboxing or MMA as successful as him, dude was just a smart fighter. As for as Dieselnoi though, the reason his height is overstated is people seem to think the stuff he was doing only worked because he was tall, but his approach to knees and mine are VERY similar, and I'm like 5'6/5'7.

Also height in the clinch doesn't = advantage, because a big objective to the clinch (if you're doing it properly) is to bore your head into the cheek bone, jaw and neck of your opponent, and get double underhooks to grind them out - which is MUCH easier to do when you're short. Using height to pull opponents into double collar tie is just amateur shit.

I think we may differ in opinion on the clinch in general (because I'm a boxer/clinch guy) so I won't get into whether its entertaining or not, but as far as him relying on it, it's not that he's relying on it, it's that the other guys can't stop him. It's like when Demien Maia or Khabib utterly dominate an opponent on the ground. When I hear 'rely' I normally think of it like: 'they rely on this because they aren't good everywhere else' - which might not be what you're saying.

Now I'm not saying that his unusual height wasn't a factor in his success, but he was far more technical than most let on.

Well it's not like there are many 7 foot tall people or fighters to start with. Being tall and having a reach advantage isn't the only factor to win, but denying it's an advantage is silly. I can clearly see how much easier it is to sparr or fight smaller opponents with less reach compared to taller ones with a bigger reach than me. That's one main reasons a lot of fighters cut tons of weight especially in MT, having that size advantage is a big factor. Of course Semmy Schilt knew how to use his reach and height well though and it's not necessarily easy to do.

I've clinch-sparred with smaller guys and with taller guys, and it's much easier against smaller guys. Of course there's only so much that size advantage can help you vs. skill gaps, hence why you can have small Thai guys throwing around big Western guys who don't have nearly the same years and years of clinch experience as them.

I don't think the clinch isn't entertaining at all, it's an important aspect of fighting and I find it interesting unlike many who don't understand it. My point was that Disselnoi relied on clinch+knees to win most of his fights and the lack of variety in the techniques he used is just less appealing overall to me, just like you have some fighters who have that 1 punch KO power in 1 hand and their whole game relies on landing that 1 punch, that's less interest to me than fighters who know how to win fights in a lot of different ways and techniques. But it's a matter of taste I guess.

 

[j123]

You know it baby.

As for what you're saying about height - that really doesn't surprise me at all. Clinch is so poorly understood, I took a pretty bad jab to the eye sparring the other day and my eye was watering too bad to keep it open, so I went into clinching, dude had about 4 inches on me, and I ragdolled him. I should point out that the sambo training definitely gives me an edge - but there's nothing really I do in terms of control that's not just... Thai clinching.

Generally I find the longer your arms the more trouble you're going to have from me, because there's more space left, more porous defence etc

A little jab to the eye and you start crying? You sure you didn't break a nail either?

Spoiler

The whole idea for them getting a hard on for height is that longer reach means they can start clinching at the shorter guy's kicking range, given they are really the lanky thin archetype. Its harder to do "traditional" pummeling playing into their game. Same with knees, it comes from farther. But thats just one aspect to it. If it were true, all the best fighters would be basketball players, and manlets would have to move onto another sport like poker or video games.

Clinching is so deep that it could be classified as its own martial art. Even stalling is part of the strategy, people who just teach go for the kill end up losing here, worse case, when bursting out of frustration is when I time the spin or dump. Its waayyyy better if they're strong and don't fall as I time the spin, because the knee that I shoot out will be money.

But you have to remember, doing the shin shield type defense in the clinch, is considered an "advanced technique". Fuckin' lol.

You found that Sambo helps? Isn't it a gi style though? Or did you mean you flying heelhooked him?

Well it's not like there are many 7 foot tall people or fighters to start with.

Lots of them around bud

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Well it's not like there are many 7 foot tall people or fighters to start with. Being tall and having a reach advantage isn't the only factor to win, but denying it's an advantage is silly. I can clearly see how much easier it is to sparr or fight smaller opponents with less reach compared to taller ones with a bigger reach than me. That's one main reasons a lot of fighters cut tons of weight especially in MT, having that size advantage is a big factor. Of course Semmy Schilt knew how to use his reach and height well though and it's not necessarily easy to do.

I've clinch-sparred with smaller guys and with taller guys, and it's much easier against smaller guys. Of course there's only so much that size advantage can help you vs. skill gaps, hence why you can have small Thai guys throwing around big Western guys who don't have nearly the same years and years of clinch experience as them.

I don't think the clinch isn't entertaining at all, it's an important aspect of fighting and I find it interesting unlike many who don't understand it. My point was that Disselnoi relied on clinch+knees to win most of his fights and the lack of variety in the techniques he used is just less appealing overall to me, just like you have some fighters who have that 1 punch KO power in 1 hand and their whole game relies on landing that 1 punch, that's less interest to me than fighters who know how to win fights in a lot of different ways and techniques. But it's a matter of taste I guess.

It's a bit more than just the Thais being more skilled, it's not really bizarre to see smaller guys handling taller guys in the clinch at all, when you're looking at two clinch fighters. Sylvie VonDoom is probably the best example I can give at the moment of someone who's virtually always shorter, and is actively out clinching Thai's because she knows how to use her lower centre of gravity.

You seem to think that I'm denying it as an advantage though, which I'm not - I'm just not keen on when people say that Dieselnoi/Schilt only one because of their height, when there's Giant Silva, Hong Man Choi's and Struves out there who couldn't make it work. None of which were BAD fighters (okay... Giant Silva was awful) but certainly not as successful.

I know you're not saying that they ONLY one because of their height, but I think the height gets overplayed a bit.

That being said it doesn't seem like we're really disagreeing with each other, we seem to be saying more or less the same things