Difference between bareknuckle defense and glove defense

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by MadSquabbles500, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. Hotora86

    Hotora86 Self-Defense Belt

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    It always starts with 2 random humans punching each other in the face... Then someone along the way finds better ways of punching and fighting in general. If those work, others learn from him and record the knowledge. That's how (in simple terms) martial arts are born - be it boxing, Karate, MT, WC or whatever.

    I seriously don't see why boxing would have to be exported anywhere to look similar in other parts of the world. Same goes for Judo throws appearing on ancient Greek illustrations or Medieval manuscripts - must have been exported? No, that's just how the human body works and people have come up with that by themselves.

    More on the subject by someone with more authority than an anonymous Sherdog poster (me):

     
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  2. William Huggins

    William Huggins Green Belt

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    You do know they had trade and contact. They did not live in isolation, even the Greeks invaded Afghanistan which is practically next door to China. I don't think the world lived in isolation as much as you think but I think we did have dark times of isolation that might make it appear that these arts have been developed in total isolation.

    It is difficult to prove but we do have evidence that trade at some points in time spanned the globe.
     
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  3. Hotora86

    Hotora86 Self-Defense Belt

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    Never have I said that "the world lived in isolation". It didn't but that has little to do with the subject. If you wanna theorize that fist fighting had one single point of origin and was not developed independently in separate locations then go ahead and prove it.
     
  4. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    You're both right and wrong. No one can pinpoint any specific origins of fist fighting, but that's because of how recording of human history has gone. Also, everything was exported including fist fighting. Influence can clearly be seen in move execution, this isn't a 100th monkey phenomenon
     
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  5. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    why not use a bit of that tactic today?
     
  6. William Huggins

    William Huggins Green Belt

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    Lots of assuming going on..............
     
  7. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    It is dismissed as a silly thing old guys who boxed poorly did, modern ignorance. The notion lives on in Cuban and Russian systems when they pretend to punch from WAY too far away and then suddenly close distance and attack
     
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  8. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    ok because I have seen a few guys do something similar, but it was a backwards circle instead of forward. Also something I was once told was to throw very subtle mini combinations and it may get guys to react. i dont ever do it though. it makes sens to me that someones hands that are in movement would make things more difficult to spot the punch. SO what is this thing called? hand movement? i would like to learn more about it.
     
  9. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I don't know that it has a name, but the mini-combo notion is what I was referring to.
     
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  10. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

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    Not sure if you guys talk about what I think you talk about. When I do pure boxing every now and then, I play with a bunch of staffs and different styles/techniques to have fun.
    One of them is been in a southpaw with a Philly shell stance. When I'm in that position, I continuously "bounce" my front hand from side to side and keep throwing feints as half jabs or half hooks, in various tempo.
    My front forearm is horizontal, and I keep doing a movement with it from side to side. Some times a throw my strike when it's a the pic of the movement at the right, some times at the middle of the movement, and some times at the far left. When it's to the right, it's mostly a hook, and when in the left, it's a jab. But the constant motion, and the feints, and the different timing on where my hands is when I strike, makes it kinda difficult to read.

    Or maybe I have no clue what you're talking about, so forget what I said...
     
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  11. Fire of Youth

    Fire of Youth Green Belt

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    I call that an "active guard", where you proactively move your guard around, showing holes and then closing them. It also flows from one position to another.

    A "passive guard" on the other hand, keeps the guard pretty much in one form (e.g. both gloves glued to the head), and then uses movement and positioning to defend the areas that the guard is not protecting.
     
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  12. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    theres a circling of the hands in the muay boran walk.
     
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  13. jabelar

    jabelar Blue Belt

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    Even pawing jabs can become a sort of rythmic "circling" motion. It can literally just be a part of your rythm, but also can be distracting, can lull the opponent into ignoring your movement, etc.

    Regarding the original question specifically about blocking, I do think that a Wing Chun style block using your elbows up (kinda like the guy who posted picture of his block above), as well as other Asian styles like the karate two hand block, might make more sense in bareknuckle situations.

    Another thing with bare knuckle, my understanding is that a lot of guys would use the palm of their hands to strike. This is same sort of thing taught in Krav Maga and related serious self-defense as well. Basically to avoid the issue of potentially breaking your hand. If you practice it a bit it can actually feel more natural than you might expect and can deliver a remarkably powerful blow, albeit a hook becomes more of a slap and your overall range is reduced. Also in Krav Maga you're taught not to twist your punch if you are using a fist, but rather keep it in a more natural, almost vertical position for straights and jabs. Again, just a little practice and it can also be quite natural.

    Overall, I do think some more traditional martial arts and self defense blocks and strikes might make more sense in bareknuckle situations.
     
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  14. StopDucking

    StopDucking Ronda Rousey hater

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    What I prefer over both these guards is a semi-active guard like the one Andre Ward uses where your read hand stays close to the body while the jabbing hand is in constant motion, extending and retracting to gauge distances, circling to catch the opponent's attention before dropping for a body short from the outside. The legs are always active with constant footwork and level changes, which allows you to stay in a good position to attack without sacrificing defense, even for a brief moment.
     
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  15. Hotora86

    Hotora86 Self-Defense Belt

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    Also sounds like a tactic that Mas Oyama referred to as enshin, or pin-wheel hands. To quote Oyama:
    "Enshin (pinwheel) gets its name from the way you constantly rotate your hands in a circular motion to confuse your opponent."
    Source: http://fightland.vice.com/blog/lyoto-machida-the-double-edged-sword-of-competition-karate

    I haven't trained enough Kyokushin to really practice this so perhaps the Kyokushin guys here would want to elaborate?
     
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  16. Chungungo

    Chungungo Getting some snow

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    A guy I knew from a Silat style used to move the hands in a similar way but with open palms.
     
  17. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

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    @Chungungo

    I have 0 knowledge about Silat other than sticks and knifes. In my mind I have it as a legit self defense method, but that's about it... So i can't really comment on that.
     
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  18. Chungungo

    Chungungo Getting some snow

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    No problem, just saying what I saw, don´t know much eitehr XD
     
  19. shunyata

    shunyata Black Belt

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    Bareknuckle is more about parries than blocks in terms of defense with the hands. Handwork + footwork and head movement are even more important when the glove guard isn't a safe space.

    And a heavy emphasis on the clinch. It's gonna happen, protect yourself or get wrecked in the clinch.

    Also it's not a bad idea to hit the face open hand and use closed fists to the body.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
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  20. Ilk

    Ilk Blue Belt

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    This is what I was referring to. You better be protecting in other ways than just gloves, because gloves only guards do not help even in hard spars. I have seen Ward defending and I have seen other top boxers like Golovkin defending. These guys use their arms, ellbows, palms, shoulders and etc for blocking, but mostly pre-emptive ducks, slips and forcing such. I have not seen a single top boxers who goes full high guard and says "yes bitch hit my gloves" besides some troll Floyd moves when he wants to show off his defence.
     

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