Do champions have an obligation to fight until they lose?

[NotoriousMillions]

I'm surprised at the amount of GSP hate on these forums. I mention GSP because he is the biggest example, but other examples are the WMMA fighters GDR at 145 and Nicco Monano at 125.

It seems people are pissed that GSP vacated 170 without giving Hendricks a rematch, and then vacated 185 without fighting Whittaker. I'm baffled as to why that would upset people, other than simply being disappointed that you don't get to see more GSP fights.

It seems to come down to this notion that the champion "must fight until they lose". Like a passing of the torch, the champion is somehow obligated to eventually yield their legacy to the newer generation. I cannot overstate how much I disagree with this absurd notion.

The only exception I would agree with, is when champions refuse to fight and finally vacate the belt after holding the division up for a year. Nicco Montano would fall into this category. However, GSP graciously vacated his titles rather quickly in both cases. He didn't hold up divisions.

So my question is: Sherdoggers that believe in this nonsense, how do you justify that a "champion must fight until they lose"???

Georges retired at 32 in an undeveloped sport to duck evolving competition that was passing him by or at least getting close. Let's call it like it is. You nostalgics are unbearable. Pretending that 30 year olds, and even 28 year olds are "out of their prime" as an excuse as to why they aren't on top anymore when people older than them are still competing at a higher level. All the great fighters in boxing last generations. Why should MMA be any different? Especially when it's underdeveloped and the true measure of a great fighter is their ability to adapt to higher competition? GSP will be left in the dust very soon, and he'll have nobody to blame but himself. Deal with it.

 

[awymore]

I'll turn the question around to TS:

If a champ walks away for whatever reason and decides to come back later, does he/she automatically deserve a title shot?

I would never give a champ who retired another title shot. It's a surefire way to fuck a division as we saw with GSP/Bisping. If they want to come back, great. Set them up with some interesting money fights that have nothing to do with the belt.

 

[Alpha_T83]

Georges retired at 32 in an undeveloped sport to duck evolving competition that was passing him by or at least getting close. Let's call it like it is.

Finally someone brings this argument up. This is the one semi-legit argument that separates GSP from other cases. For example, DC is going to retire next year, and could possibly vacate both 205 and HW belts without defending them until he loses. But I don't think DC will get hate, because it's acceptable to retire at 40. GSP on the other hand is viewed to have retired "in his prime", which is distinctly different.

But allow me to shatter this argument for you. Firstly, in combat sports it's not just absolute age that matters, but career age. DC didn't even START fighting in MMA until he was 30 years old. GSP by contrast has been fighting in MMA since he was 20!! That means GSP's MMA career was already 12 years long at 32. He was worn out at 32.

Now, your counter argument is obviously going to be that 12 years isn't a long time. But another factor is the training grind: You've got guys like "Gumby" (Jeremy Horn) with 100+ MMA fights over a 20 year period!! However, Jeremy Horn didn't really train all that hard. Most of his fights were basically training, fighting easier competition. GSP most likely put in far more training hours over his 12 years in MMA (20-32 years of age) than Jeremy horn did in his entire career.

GSP was fighting the best of the best for most of his run at 170. That level of training, facing elite competition every fight, wears on a fighter. And training for 5 round fights is far more challenging than training for 3 round fights. At the age of 32 GSP had 2 major ACL reconstruction surgeries, and god knows how many other smaller injuries nagging him. You literally cannot keep that championship pace up for 10+ years. Just look at Mighty Mouse -- he basically shrugged his shoulders and walked away after losing to Cejudo. He's tired and needs some time off after such a gruelling championship run.

Basically, you cannot fathom how much of a toll GSP's career would have taken on him by the age of 32. Most guys don't reach that level of exhaustion until their late 30's.

 

[Alpha_T83]

I would never give a champ who retired another title shot. It's a surefire way to fuck a division as we saw with GSP/Bisping. If they want to come back, great. Set them up with some interesting money fights that have nothing to do with the belt.

I agree that GSP should have at least had to beat a top 5 middleweight contender before fighting Bisping. That situation was stupid, but it was the UFC & Dana White that pushed it. They were having a bad year and were desperate for some star power in the UFC.

 

[VAfan]

They have an obligation to defend.

/thread

 

[Alpha_T83]

/thread

Not really. A nonsensical argument with zero explanation or reasoning. Only a fucking moron would believe that. You're basically a piece of shit "schadenfreude" human being if you think champs should be forced to fight until they lose.

 

[VAfan]

Not really. A nonsensical argument with zero explanation or reasoning. Only a fucking moron would believe that. You're basically a piece of shit "schadenfreude" human being if you think champs should be forced to fight until they lose.

no I know - was basically a swipe at conor. all threads should end with "conor should defend at least once".

 

[Gamer007]

I think it rubs people the wrong way, especially when a lot of GSP fanboys like to bring up his record like he didn't leave the game for 4 years when things were getting tougher. If Silva retired after the bonner fight he'd be the undisputed UFC GOAT, yet because he continued to fight while GSP stayed on the sidelines he eventually lost. The naive among us don't realize how a decision to retire on top can make a guys career look better than it actually was. I have nothing against GSP he's a beast, but his fan try to act like he is this undisputed GOAT of MMA and it's sad to the guys who stuck it out and fought till they lost. It's less about GSP and more about the naive fans. GSP fans are very very different from Fedor & Andy fans, they think their guys is somehow above the warriors who put it on the line and went out on their shield. GSP will always be looked at as the "Athlete" instead of a "fighter" in alot of people's eyes, because he was the first guy to really prioritize his career and image over anything else. This last point isn't exactly fair but in the only two recorded losses GSP suffered, he tapped out in both. When serra had him mounted, he didn't fight till the end, he conceded the fight and submitted to the ground and pound. So when history looks back on him, it won't be in the same light as "Warriors" like Andy and Fedor, fair or not.

 

[Senzo Tanaka]

They do actually. It's in the contract as the "Champion's Clause".

If you win the title, your contract is extended indefinitely until you either lose or retire. It was a sticking point when M-1 was negotiating to get Fedor in the UFC.

GSP relinquished the belt due to health reasons so I'd assume there are some provisions in place for that kind of thing. I think the issue with GSP is that he avoided MW his entire career, waited until the weakest possible person had the MW title and then decided to move up. He wins and then immediately drops the title instead of facing someone that everyone thought would give him an actual challenge in Whittaker. He also seems to refuse to fight Woodley at WW which also, would be a huge challenge for him.

 

[ROIDZ]

/thread

TS loses his temper when people don't agree all of 100%. Yes in fact Champions do have an obligation to defend. Not hold up an entire division to have one fight and leave fucking everyone around. Gsp is an awesome fighter and even better dude but his profile picture would suggest he doesn't like anyone saying anything about him. He has an obligation to defend.

 

[Shaddows]

I'm surprised at the amount of GSP hate on these forums. I mention GSP because he is the biggest example, but other examples are the WMMA fighters GDR at 145 and Nicco Monano at 125.

It seems people are pissed that GSP vacated 170 without giving Hendricks a rematch, and then vacated 185 without fighting Whittaker. I'm baffled as to why that would upset people, other than simply being disappointed that you don't get to see more GSP fights.

It seems to come down to this notion that the champion "must fight until they lose". Like a passing of the torch, the champion is somehow obligated to eventually yield their legacy to the newer generation. I cannot overstate how much I disagree with this absurd notion.

The only exception I would agree with, is when champions refuse to fight and finally vacate the belt after holding the division up for a year. Nicco Montano would fall into this category. However, GSP graciously vacated his titles rather quickly in both cases. He didn't hold up divisions.

So my question is: Sherdoggers that believe in this nonsense, how do you justify that a "champion must fight until they lose"???

I am baffled how many GSP fanboys are so stupid.
Sorry, kid, but that is not because I am mad, I am merely stating a fact you should know.

I don't mind GSP not fighting Hendricks. He felt the need to stop, and I respect that. Though you have to agree that fight was far from a good win to stop at.
Most people thought he lost, and it would have been good for him to come back, rematch Hendricks and leave after proving to everyone that he was indeed the GOAT. But he had a great reign, and (I think) 99.999% of MMA fans were (while sad to see him go) OK with the fact he was calling it quits.

But the way he came back, when the MW division was finally full of killers competing for the belt, and he saw the opportunity of fighting the weakest MW champion to date (by the way, a thing he always claimed he wouldn't do as he was "so small" while good fighters had the belt, but showed a lot of opportunism by coming back to fight Bisping). At any rate, he deserved to do that just because he was GSP.

But then he started to drag the fight with Bisping for almost a year. And then, DESPITE SIGNING A CONTRACT stating he would unify the belt with WHittaker, he simply fucking run!
That shows a huge disrespect to the sport that made him and gave him everything he is today.

Sorry, but if you can't understand how this is a bad thing, it just shows your fandoom is clouding your judgement to the point you are braindead and incapable of understanding a very simple issue.

So please stop crying for GSP and go back to sucking his nuts.

BTW, It is fairly obvious GDR and Nicco are just excuses you use, but since you are so dumb, I felt compelled to edit my post just to add that. It is one thing to retire like GSP did after Hendricks. It is another thing entirely to get a belt and run before ever defending the belt.
And GDR fucking KNEW she would face Cyborg next. But she got the belt then run. That was despicable.

As for Nicco, I disagree she should get any heat for not fighting if she didn't feel good. health is first and foremost. This was Dana pissed because the co-main event was cut last minute (impacting revenue).

 

[Gamer007]

TS loses his temper when people don't agree all of 100%. Yes in fact Champions do have an obligation to defend. Not hold up an entire division to have one fight and leave fucking everyone around. Gsp is an awesome fighter and even better dude but his profile picture would suggest he doesn't like anyone saying anything about him. He has an obligation to defend.

Yep this was the same guy who got mad when I stated some facts about a Woodley vs GSP fight, called me rude names and such.....typical.

 

[ROIDZ]

Yep this was the same guy who got mad when I stated some facts about a Woodley vs GSP fight, called me rude names and such.....typical.

We had some back and forth during this thread that was mature then goes on to say that I'm a moron and a piece of shit "schadenfreude" human being LOL. Dude needs a snickers and to find a girlfriend/boyfriend that looks like Gsp.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Georges retired at 32 in an undeveloped sport to duck evolving competition that was passing him by or at least getting close. Let's call it like it is. You nostalgics are unbearable. Pretending that 30 year olds, and even 28 year olds are "out of their prime" as an excuse as to why they aren't on top anymore when people older than them are still competing at a higher level. All the great fighters in boxing last generations. Why should MMA be any different? Especially when it's underdeveloped and the true measure of a great fighter is their ability to adapt to higher competition? GSP will be left in the dust very soon, and he'll have nobody to blame but himself. Deal with it.

GSP wrecked his knee - possibly his own fault, I can't remember if it was in practice or not.

However, if retiring at 30 because of injury is ducking, then Sandy Koufax, Bobby Orr, Magic Johnson, and Bo Jackson should be removed from their respective Hall of Fames for being quitters.

And you might want to look at what age Tyson left his prime even without injuries. Life is complicated, some people last longer than others.

BTW, did you know that only 5% of NBA MVP's went to someone over the age of 32, and 80% go to guys in their mid-20's? And only 5% of Olympic gold medals go to an athlete over the age of 30, and 80% to athletes in their mid-20's? In sport, 30 is generally over the hill. There are exceptions either way - athletes who win gold medals in their teens and athletes who win gold medals in their late 30's, but by far the majority of Olympic gold medals are won in their mid-20's. Which is why the mid-20's is considered athletic prime.

Thinking that every athlete or fighter follows the same age related career suggests you haven't actually looked at the age related numbers.

 

[Thesnake101]

The MW situation irks me, because that was GSP being an opportunist and fighting a guy who many thought as the weakest champion on the roster - WMMA notwithstanding - after years of saying that Anderson was "too big", and then, after beating him, he vacates.

I don't hold vacating the title against him, but I do hold the him waiting for a weak champion against him.

 

[Lilly Hannah]

GSP is not undefeated. He has losses.

 

[vcmmafan]

I'm surprised at the amount of GSP hate on these forums. I mention GSP because he is the biggest example, but other examples are the WMMA fighters GDR at 145 and Nicco Monano at 125.

It seems people are pissed that GSP vacated 170 without giving Hendricks a rematch, and then vacated 185 without fighting Whittaker. I'm baffled as to why that would upset people, other than simply being disappointed that you don't get to see more GSP fights.

It seems to come down to this notion that the champion "must fight until they lose". Like a passing of the torch, the champion is somehow obligated to eventually yield their legacy to the newer generation. I cannot overstate how much I disagree with this absurd notion.

The only exception I would agree with, is when champions refuse to fight and finally vacate the belt after holding the division up for a year. Nicco Montano would fall into this category. However, GSP graciously vacated his titles rather quickly in both cases. He didn't hold up divisions.

So my question is: Sherdoggers that believe in this nonsense, how do you justify that a "champion must fight until they lose"???

GSP hate? He's one of the most loved fighters on Sherdog

 

[ANIM4L]

Not really. A nonsensical argument with zero explanation or reasoning. Only a fucking moron would believe that. You're basically a piece of shit "schadenfreude" human being if you think champs should be forced to fight until they lose.

You got problems

 

[ROIDZ]

You got problems

Spits the dummy hard and its pretty funny. Can imagine him sitting there frothing at the mouth smacking the keyboard with his gsp pin up in the background. Wipes a tear from his eye as he puts on lipstick and kisses the pin up.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

GSP hate? He's one of the most loved fighters on Sherdog

And simultaneously one of the most hated. Others in that category: McGregor, Anderson, Jones, Fedor ... if you doubt, search the number of negative and positive threads on all of them. They all have a lot of Sherdoggers who love them, and many Sherdoggers who hate them.

Basically, if you're well known, you will have a lot of Sherdog critics as well as a lot of Sherdog fans. Fighters who are unknown have few fans, but also few haters.