Do champions have an obligation to fight until they lose?

[vcmmafan]

And simultaneously one of the most hated. Others in that category: McGregor, Anderson, Jones, Fedor ... if you doubt, search the number of negative and positive threads on all of them. They all have a lot of Sherdoggers who love them, and many Sherdoggers who hate them.

Basically, if you're well known, you will have a lot of Sherdog critics as well as a lot of Sherdog fans. Fighters who are unknown have few fans, but also few haters.

His haters are no where near as many as McGregor or Jon. He's pretty likable. Not DC likable but likable.

 

[HHJ]

They absolutley do not. This isnt pro wrestling where you have to "pass the torch." If you wanna retire,do it,whenever you want.
You cant clear the division of every generation forever.

 

[NotoriousMillions]

GSP wrecked his knee - possibly his own fault, I can't remember if it was in practice or not.

However, if retiring at 30 because of injury is ducking, then Sandy Koufax, Bobby Orr, Magic Johnson, and Bo Jackson should be removed from their respective Hall of Fames for being quitters.

And you might want to look at what age Tyson left his prime even without injuries. Life is complicated, some people last longer than others.

BTW, did you know that only 5% of NBA MVP's went to someone over the age of 32, and 80% go to guys in their mid-20's? And only 5% of Olympic gold medals go to an athlete over the age of 30, and 80% to athletes in their mid-20's? In sport, 30 is generally over the hill. There are exceptions either way - athletes who win gold medals in their teens and athletes who win gold medals in their late 30's, but by far the majority of Olympic gold medals are won in their mid-20's. Which is why the mid-20's is considered athletic prime.

Thinking that every athlete or fighter follows the same age related career suggests you haven't actually looked at the age related numbers.

Ducking what? They play team sports, they don't fight and they all had serious health issues. Why are you comparing them to GSP? It's just making your point look more stupid and wrong.

Why are you bringing up other sports now? MMA is not basketball. It's fighting. Every current champion in MMA is 30 except Robert and Max. Why are you making fake excuses? It's only making me even more correct, and proving you are compromised and can't discuss this subject logically.

 

[QcChopper]

GSP stated multiple times that he was overdue for a long break way before the Hendricks fight was even on the horizon.

For his comeback GSP tried something new @ 185, it didn't go well at all, he pulled through but he couldn't continue because it was making him sick as shit. He didn't hold up the division and did the honorable thing by vacating ASAP.

Now he wants to go to 155, which he said a long time ago that he would belong at 155 more than at 185. He has the chance to make history with a belt in a third weight class. People be honest here, if it was your favorite fighter that had the same opportunity, would you shit on him for doing so?

 

[Based Akali]

Every current champion in MMA is 30 except Robert and Max. Why are you making fake excuses? It's only making me even more correct, and proving you are compromised and can't discuss this subject logically.

Physical age doesn't matter, every current champion regardless of their age has only been professionally fighting for 5 to 10 years. They range from young in fight age to around a career length where decline happens. Oddly out of all the champions Khabib is the one that has been fighting professionally the longest and he isn't even 30 yet.

The fighters that start fighting young and have long careers are the ones that retire young in physical age even though they're well out of their fighting prime.

 

[NotoriousMillions]

Finally someone brings this argument up. This is the one semi-legit argument that separates GSP from other cases. For example, DC is going to retire next year, and could possibly vacate both 205 and HW belts without defending them until he loses. But I don't think DC will get hate, because it's acceptable to retire at 40. GSP on the other hand is viewed to have retired "in his prime", which is distinctly different.

But allow me to shatter this argument for you. Firstly, in combat sports it's not just absolute age that matters, but career age. DC didn't even START fighting in MMA until he was 30 years old. GSP by contrast has been fighting in MMA since he was 20!! That means GSP's MMA career was already 12 years long at 32. He was worn out at 32.

Now, your counter argument is obviously going to be that 12 years isn't a long time. But another factor is the training grind: You've got guys like "Gumby" (Jeremy Horn) with 100+ MMA fights over a 20 year period!! However, Jeremy Horn didn't really train all that hard. Most of his fights were basically training, fighting easier competition. GSP most likely put in far more training hours over his 12 years in MMA (20-32 years of age) than Jeremy horn did in his entire career.

GSP was fighting the best of the best for most of his run at 170. That level of training, facing elite competition every fight, wears on a fighter. And training for 5 round fights is far more challenging than training for 3 round fights. At the age of 32 GSP had 2 major ACL reconstruction surgeries, and god knows how many other smaller injuries nagging him. You literally cannot keep that championship pace up for 10+ years. Just look at Mighty Mouse -- he basically shrugged his shoulders and walked away after losing to Cejudo. He's tired and needs some time off after such a gruelling championship run.

Basically, you cannot fathom how much of a toll GSP's career would have taken on him by the age of 32. Most guys don't reach that level of exhaustion until their late 30's.

You didn't shatter shit. You just proved once again you don't know what you're talking about. How long DC has been fighting is completely irrelevant. HE'S STILL FORTY. Not everyone wants to fight until their 50s just because they can. He has health issues to worry about. He has family issues to worry about. It's beyond just whether he can step in a cage and win, which he's proved he still can at 39 and most likely at 40 as well. Nobody is going to reasonable expect him to keep fighting. What they are going to expect is the guy that retired in his prime to actually fight someone when he comes back instead of ducking competition. That's if he wants to keep his GOAT status at least.

GSP retired at THIRTY TWO. Stop pretending he's Diego Sanchez when he isn't. He had tiddles from the NATURAL BORN KILLER for fucks sake. He spent the majority of his career laying on top of people in an under-developed sport. Meanwhile you've got guys in boxing for 30 years, and you want to talk about GSP doing it for 10 being rough? Give me a fucking break.

He wasn't worn out from anything. He didn't decide to come back after YEARS not to get back what he lost because he supposedly "needed a break". It was to cherry-pick more fights and pad his legacy. Stop making excuses. Deal with reality.

 

[MPD-Psycho]

No, they can also vacate or retire.

You gotta earn some legendary status like GSP to get away with that though.

 

[dertdent]

You didn't shatter shit. You just proved once again you don't know what you're talking about. How long DC has been fighting is completely irrelevant. HE'S STILL FORTY. Not everyone wants to fight until their 50s just because they can. He has health issues to worry about. He has family issues to worry about. It's beyond just whether he can step in a cage and win, which he's proved he still can at 39 and most likely at 40 as well. Nobody is going to reasonable expect him to keep fighting. What they are going to expect is the guy that retired in his prime to actually fight someone when he comes back instead of ducking competition. That's if he wants to keep his GOAT status at least.

GSP retired at THIRTY TWO. Stop pretending he's Diego Sanchez when he isn't. He had tiddles from the NATURAL BORN KILLER for fucks sake. He spent the majority of his career laying on top of people in an under-developed sport. Meanwhile you've got guys in boxing for 30 years, and you want to talk about GSP doing it for 10 being rough? Give me a fucking break.

He wasn't worn out from anything. He didn't decide to come back after YEARS not to get back what he lost because he supposedly "needed a break". It was to cherry-pick more fights and pad his legacy. Stop making excuses. Deal with reality.

Not a GSP fan, I see. The UFC model depended on fighters never having too long of a career, so they could never build up the popularity to rival the UFC's brand. They couldn't build the leverage to make huge salary demands. So UFC matchmaking required the Champs to defend often and only against top challengers. Extremely tough schedules to wear out the champs. This had the added benefit that the UFC could market that - unlike boxing - our best face the best all the time. The UFC were giving up making huge boxing like events, where two champs would hold off facing each other for years, until the big showdown. But the UFC were willing to forgo the huge events and make even more money off a greater number of smaller ones, while paying peanuts to the fighters. Mcgregor was a challenge to this model. The UFC could no longer dictate to him who and when he was going to fight. His popularity meant they couldn't buy him off with a few million. He wanted a larger chunk of the pie. The last two years have largely been a stalemate between Mcgregor and the promotion. They want to retain the old way of doing things, why Mcgregor wanted something closer to the boxing model. (Control over matchmaking, co-promotion, huge share of the profits for the fighter.) GSP realizes this, and he has tried to do things on a similar but smaller scale. Dana wanted GSP to go straight back into the UFC meat grinder and defend the middleweight belt. Georges, like Mcgregor, know they don't need the UFC belts, they make more money not following the dictates of the UFC.

 

[NotoriousMillions]

Not a GSP fan, I see. The UFC model depended on fighters never having too long of a career, so they could never build up the popularity to rival the UFC's brand. They couldn't build the leverage to make huge salary demands. So UFC matchmaking required the Champs to defend often and only against top challengers. Extremely tough schedules to wear out the champs. This had the added benefit that the UFC could market that - unlike boxing - our best face the best all the time. The UFC were giving up making huge boxing like events, where two champs would hold off facing each other for years, until the big showdown. But the UFC were willing to forgo the huge events and make even more money off a greater number of smaller ones, while paying peanuts to the fighters. Mcgregor was a challenge to this model. The UFC could no longer dictate to him who and when he was going to fight. His popularity meant they couldn't buy him off with a few million. He wanted a larger chunk of the pie. The last two years have largely been a stalemate between Mcgregor and the promotion. They want to retain the old way of doing things, why Mcgregor wanted something closer to the boxing model. (Control over matchmaking, co-promotion, huge share of the profits for the fighter.) GSP realizes this, and he has tried to do things on a similar but smaller scale. Dana wanted GSP to go straight back into the UFC meat grinder and defend the middleweight belt. Georges, like Mcgregor, know they don't need the UFC belts, they make more money not following the dictates of the UFC.

Boxing has much more competition. A tune up fight is more of a challenge in boxing than most challengers in MMA.

Just because I’m pointing out facts doesn’t mean I’m not a GSP fan, or that I don’t even think he’s the GOAT. He is...for now. I’m not going to sit there and lie though to make him look better than he is. He ducked then and is ducking now.

He’s not looking for big fights like Conor, he’s just looking for easy fights, particularly ones that pad his legacy. Conor signed to fight supposed threat chad on short notice and risk his title shot. Conor signed to fight the P4P #1. He signed to fight RDA who most were claiming was the LW GOAT at the time. He dined to fight he guy that beat him two weight classes higher again. He signed to fight one of the best LWs of all time in Eddie. He signed to fight the P4P #1 of his generation in another sport. He’s now signed to fight the 26-0 killer who everyone believes is his toughest match-up he has or will face at 155 and under. Hell Conor might even be going up two weight classes and fight Tyron.

And GSP can’t in his own division? Give me a fucking break. Conor may not care about beating every bum in the division to pad some mystical title defense record but he has only fought nothing but the best and has consistently challenged himself more than GSP ever has. Conor would’ve never ducked a huge fight with Anderson. He wouldn’t let Tyron pass his legacy because he was too scared. He wouldn’t wait and didn’t until a guy like Bisping had the belt to move up a weight class. GSP is a great fighter and a smart one, but he’s one of the most mentally weak fighters that have ever been in this sport.

 

[El_Diazo]

I think the GSP situation at middleweight was a joke. I'm not going to defend that decision, but that was Dana White & the UFCs decision. Georges simply accepted a fight he was offered.

That situation was created by Bisping ducking the rightful contenders. GSP shouldn't get any hate for that situation.

GSP is at fault too. He fought Bisping for the belt and then wouldn't unify with Robert, whats the point of having the belt then? To make it worse he claimed he had colitis to vacate and now wants to fight at a lower weight class less than a year later.

 

[Championstuff]

Lately it seems as though they aren’t obligated to do fuck all

 

[ReadWrite]

I'd like to see champion fighters with a price on their head. Each defense is worth $50,000. After he has 10 successful defenses, the bonus payout for the fighter who kills the king is $500,000. Kill The King Ka-Ching. This would amp up the promotion even if the champs would feel there was a contract put out on them and encourage the obligation to fight until they lose.

 

[GSP_37]

No, but Dana probably wants them to for torch passing purposes.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Ducking what? They play team sports, they don't fight and they all had serious health issues. Why are you comparing them to GSP? It's just making your point look more stupid and wrong.

Why are you bringing up other sports now? MMA is not basketball. It's fighting. Every current champion in MMA is 30 except Robert and Max. Why are you making fake excuses? It's only making me even more correct, and proving you are compromised and can't discuss this subject logically.

On the contrary, thinking that a severe knee injury isn't grounds for retiring makes you sound extremely uniformed, like someone whose experience in both sport and fighting is based on video games, where everyone always recovers to full health between missions.

Moreover, thinking that fighters' bodies are different than competitors in every other sport out there is magical thinking, the kind of 'kung-fu' movie stuff that MMA in general and the UFC in particular were made to disprove. Fighting is a physical activity, and its governed by the same physical and mental constraints as every other physical activity.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

His haters are no where near as many as McGregor or Jon. He's pretty likable. Not DC likable but likable.

I'm not sure, there are as many anti-GSP posts over the years as anti-McGregor or anti-Jones. Though I suppose you could argue many of those posts are made by a few dedicated haters (like the guy who's picture is a weird picture of GSP).

 

[NotoriousMillions]

On the contrary, thinking that a severe knee injury isn't grounds for retiring makes you sound extremely uniformed, like someone whose experience in both sport and fighting is based on video games, where everyone always recovers to full health between missions.

Moreover, thinking that fighters' bodies are different than competitors in every other sport out there is magical thinking, the kind of 'kung-fu' movie stuff that MMA in general and the UFC in particular were made to disprove. Fighting is a physical activity, and its governed by the same physical and mental constraints as every other physical activity.

What serious knee injury? Tearing your ACL is hardly a serious injury anymore. He came back from it and wen't 3-0. He had the second injury years AFTER he retired. Stop making excuses and start making some facts. You're boy ran scared and you're desperate panicking here to defend him is pathetic.

And you don't know shit about fighting either. It is NOT the same as other sports. What a fucking ignorant ass thing to say. It's time to for you stop talking about anything athletic altogether. You are clearly clueless.

 

[Ghost in the Dark]

No but if they are f*cking around wasting people's time they should just get that belt stripped so fast it makes their head spin.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

What serious knee injury? Tearing your ACL is hardly a serious injury anymore. He came back from it and wen't 3-0. He had the second injury years AFTER he retired. Stop making excuses and start making some facts. You're boy ran scared and you're desperate panicking here to defend him is pathetic.

And you don't know shit about fighting either. It is NOT the same as other sports. What a fucking ignorant ass thing to say. It's time to for you stop talking about anything athletic altogether. You are clearly clueless.

Look at GSP's movement before and after knee surgery, and then see if you can say with a straight face that it hasn't affected his performance. Yes he went 3-0, but they were much closer matches, and only someone with zero knowledge of fighting couldn't see how it affected his mobility.

And every sport is different, but some aspects are common; human physiology doesn't magically change for fighters. Real fighters have the same age related physiological changes as other athletes. Read up on sports physiology; reflexes start deteriorating in the early 20's and are significantly reduced by 30. Recovery time peaks in the teens, and is significantly reduced by 30 (though that is partly offset by PED use). And the slower recovery time means less time available for intense drills, furthering the decline in timing (which has already been hurt by slower reaction time).

Speed of muscle contraction starts to slow in the mid-20's, but is less pronounced than the decline in reflexes. Strength doesn't start to seriously decline until the 40's, so strength based styles often last longer.

Of course, none of this shows up in your UFC video games, so feel free to continue insulting rather than actually researching the physiological changes with time. However you'll find that outside of Internet forums, resorting to insults rather than argument is usually taken as a sign that the person doing the insults doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

[NotoriousMillions]

Look at GSP's movement before and after knee surgery, and then see if you can say with a straight face that it hasn't affected his performance. Yes he went 3-0, but they were much closer matches, and only someone with zero knowledge of fighting couldn't see how it affected his mobility.

And every sport is different, but some aspects are common; human physiology doesn't magically change for fighters. Real fighters have the same age related physiological changes as other athletes. Read up on sports physiology; reflexes start deteriorating in the early 20's and are significantly reduced by 30. Recovery time peaks in the teens, and is significantly reduced by 30 (though that is partly offset by PED use). And the slower recovery time means less time available for intense drills, furthering the decline in timing (which has already been hurt by slower reaction time).

Speed of muscle contraction starts to slow in the mid-20's, but is less pronounced than the decline in reflexes. Strength doesn't start to seriously decline until the 40's, so strength based styles often last longer.

Of course, none of this shows up in your UFC video games, so feel free to continue insulting rather than actually researching the physiological changes with time. However you'll find that outside of Internet forums, resorting to insults rather than argument is usually taken as a sign that the person doing the insults doesn't know what they're talking about.

Tougher competition*

So Floyd Mayweather has a strength based style? Anderson Silva? Tyron Woodley?

LOL!

I wish I could say I've never seen someone make so many excuses for a fighter in my life, but that's the standard here on Sherdog. Where people point to physical decline as young as 25, instead of dealing with the fact that this 25 year old sport is still developing and fighters are getting better - some faster than others.

Yet for all of your "physiological changes" you still havn't be able to tell me why GSP who is the same age as Tyron is can't fight him. LOL!

 

[screaminleeman]

I'm surprised at the amount of GSP hate on these forums. I mention GSP because he is the biggest example, but other examples are the WMMA fighters GDR at 145 and Nicco Monano at 125.

It seems people are pissed that GSP vacated 170 without giving Hendricks a rematch, and then vacated 185 without fighting Whittaker. I'm baffled as to why that would upset people, other than simply being disappointed that you don't get to see more GSP fights.

It seems to come down to this notion that the champion "must fight until they lose". Like a passing of the torch, the champion is somehow obligated to eventually yield their legacy to the newer generation. I cannot overstate how much I disagree with this absurd notion.

The only exception I would agree with, is when champions refuse to fight and finally vacate the belt after holding the division up for a year. Nicco Montano would fall into this category. However, GSP graciously vacated his titles rather quickly in both cases. He didn't hold up divisions.

So my question is: Sherdoggers that believe in this nonsense, how do you justify that a "champion must fight until they lose"???

What happened in the UFC WW division for the 10 months after GSP took out Jake Shields (April 2011) until the UFC threw together some horsey "interim" belt in February 2012 between Diaz & Condit? November 2012 being the first title defense in 19 months in the division? FFS they scheduled BOTH fighters in the interim WW contest to the next two title fights for Georges. He handled BOTH marvelously, but lets not just pick and choose "holding up divisions" lightly.