Do you know anything about ATA taekwondo?

[Guestx]

So I was just perusing YouTube and watching random shit and I ran across this video.

This is a demo done by an ATA school. I don't know a whole lot about ATA, but I do know that they started out strictly as a TKD organization (ATA = American Taekwondo Association) and it has since rebranded itself as ATA Martial Arts because they now have incorporated stuff from other martial arts into their program and apparently even have some kind of MMA and Krav Maga modules that you can go through if you're an ATA student.

That might sound great, but the impression that I get is that ATA is pretty much the whipping boy of the TKD world and that it is the ultimate McDojo (McDojang?). But I was curious to know if anyone here was familiar with the organization or has any experience with them.

As I said, this video is a demo. They were putting their best foot forward. I've timestamped the part that particularly stood out to me.

 

[Hagelslag2]

As a (former) practitioner and competitor in both ITF and WTF Taekwondo, I want to slap the shit out of everybody in that video.

 

[Guestx]

As a (former) practitioner and competitor in both ITF and WTF Taekwondo, I want to slap the shit out of everybody in that video.

I fucked around with ITF TKD for a little bit. If I could've found a better school I'd probably still be doing it today.

To be fair, apparently Anthony Pettis hails from ATA TKD so it can't be all bad. But as I mentioned earlier, I do know the organization has a reputation of rampant McDojoism.

I assume there are a few good schools out there. But from what I understand the ATA is the poster child for just pumping students through the machine in order to make as much money as possible, with little quality control.

 

[Hagelslag2]

I fucked around with ITF TKD for a little bit. If I could've found a better school I'd probably still be doing it today.

To be fair, apparently Anthony Pettis hails from ATA TKD so it can't be all about. But as I mentioned earlier, I do know the organization has a reputation of rampant McDojoism.

I assume there are a few good schools out there. But from what I understand the ATA is the poster child for just pumping students through the machine in order to make as much money as possible, with little quality control.

IMO, TKD as a whole has absolutely gone to the dogs. I have competed in both major rulesets, longer in ITF than WTF. I much prefer ITF, because it's still a martial art. I once had a convo with a former Olympian who literally said to me that I shouldn't consider WTF TKD a martial art, but more as playing tag with your foot. The whole ruleset is upsetting to me and it has only gotten worse over the years. Not actually rewarding an 8-count is ridiculous.

My ITF TKD background had a lot of carry-over into my KB/MT career, not only because of the less limiting ruleset, but also because of the mentality. My biggest gripe with ITF TKD at the time, at least in the Netherlands, was that the whole association was incestuous as fuck. People getting honorary degrees, people being selected for championships because they came from a specific gym etcetera.

At its core, I think that TKD is as valid as, say, any form of karate. Maybe that's because I was trained in a style of Taekwondo as it was taught to my teacher by Hur Heung Taek before the WTF even existed and when the ITF was still in its infancy.

 

[Guestx]

IMO, TKD as a whole has absolutely gone to the dogs. I have competed in both major rulesets, longer in ITF than WTF. I much prefer ITF, because it's still a martial art. I once had a convo with a former Olympian who literally said to me that I shouldn't consider WTF TKD a martial art, but more as playing tag with your foot. The whole ruleset is upsetting to me and it has only gotten worse over the years. Not actually rewarding an 8-count is ridiculous.

My ITF TKD background had a lot of carry-over into my KB/MT career, not only because of the less limiting ruleset, but also because of the mentality. My biggest gripe with ITF TKD at the time, at least in the Netherlands, was that the whole association was incestuous as fuck. People getting honorary degrees, people being selected for championships because they came from a specific gym etcetera.

At its core, I think that TKD is as valid as, say, any form of karate. Maybe that's because I was trained in a style of Taekwondo as it was taught to my teacher by Hur Heung Taek before the WTF even existed and when the ITF was still in its infancy.

I trained with an ITF group for about four months and also did a bit of dipping my toes in the water at a local WTF place.

I do think that ITF seemed more valid as a martial art (although sine wave can go fuck itself) and I think that, if trained with the right level of technical proficiency and intensity, someone could certainly learn to fight and defend themselves as an ITF taekwondoin. I was initially quite excited about the opportunity to learn ITF TKD after checking out some videos on YouTube, but unfortunately I was let down by the actual school and realized that ultimately the problems extended to the entire organization it was a part of (the USTF). When I saw a red belt testing that didn't require any sparring I knew it was time to abandon ship.

One thing I will give WTF TKD credit for is developing fighters who often can do some very attractive kicks and, more importantly, who often also know how to put a lot of power into a kick.

Regarding looking at WTF TKD as playing tag, I'm sure that has some merit to it, although what is a shame is that if you actually look at the entire system all the techniques are there for a full-fledged fighting art. It's just that WTF TKD is so laser-focused on competition under their specific ruleset that only about 30% of the actual style gets trained on a serious level. The rest of the techniques are just relegated to forms that no one gives a shit about.

To go back to your tag analogy, I've heard karate point sparring equated with fencing. But of course a lot more techniques are legal and will score in karate point competition than in WTF competition, including takedowns, so it's less restrictive. In any case, I tend to think that point sparring is best looked at as an exercise to develop certain skills, like understanding distance and timing. It shouldn't get confused with the martial art itself.

I think that in the case of the Kukkiwon they fell into the trap of confusing their particular brand of TKD competition with the martial art of TKD itself.

 

[Hagelslag2]

I trained with an ITF group for about four months and also did a bit of dipping my toes in the water at a local WTF place.

I do think that ITF seemed more valid as a martial art (although sine wave can go fuck itself) and I think that, if trained with the right level of technical proficiency and intensity, someone could certainly learn to fight and defend themselves as an ITF taekwondoin. I was initially quite excited about the opportunity to learn ITF TKD after checking out some videos on YouTube, but unfortunately I was let down by the actual school and realized that ultimately the problems extended to the entire organization it was a part of (the USTF). When I saw a red belt testing that didn't require any sparring I knew it was time to abandon ship.

One thing I will give WTF TKD credit for is developing fighters who often can do some very attractive kicks and, more importantly, who often also know how to put a lot of power into a kick.

Regarding looking at WTF TKD as playing tag, I'm sure that has some merit to it, although what is a shame is that if you actually look at the entire system all the techniques are there for a full-fledged fighting art. It's just that WTF TKD is so laser-focused on competition under their specific ruleset that only about 30% of the actual style gets trained on a serious level. The rest of the techniques are just relegated to forms that no one gives a shit about.

To go back to your tag analogy, I've heard karate point sparring equated with fencing. But of course a lot more techniques are legal and will score in karate point competition than in WTF competition, including takedowns, so it's less restrictive. In any case, I tend to think that point sparring is best looked at as an exercise to develop certain skills, like understanding distance and timing. It shouldn't get confused with the martial art itself.

I think that in the case of the Kukkiwon they fell into the trap of confusing their particular brand of TKD competition with the martial art of TKD itself.

That's a pretty fair assessment. I think that one of the biggest mistakes Kukkiwon made, which sports like boxing and judo have also fallen for, is doing everything in its power to get (and maintain) Olympic recognition. To be admitted to the Olympics, you need to have a pretty broad international base and I suspect that making TKD more accessible to the masses has let to all kind of 'innovations' that were indeed great for getting more people to participate, but also butchered the original sport beyond recognition.

As to the quality of ITF schools, that indeed varies immensely from school to school. I don't think that the schisms that resulted in several different orgs claiming to be the 'one true ITF' really contributed to the maintenance of quality.

 

[Hotora86]

That's a pretty fair assessment. I think that one of the biggest mistakes Kukkiwon made, which sports like boxing and judo have also fallen for, is doing everything in its power to get (and maintain) Olympic recognition. To be admitted to the Olympics, you need to have a pretty broad international base and I suspect that making TKD more accessible to the masses has let to all kind of 'innovations' that were indeed great for getting more people to participate, but also butchered the original sport beyond recognition.

As to the quality of ITF schools, that indeed varies immensely from school to school. I don't think that the schisms that resulted in several different orgs claiming to be the 'one true ITF' really contributed to the maintenance of quality.

Olympic recognition is a cancer to martial arts. The Olympics butchered Judo and they butchered TKD. Both arts would be better off without them. I am horrified about Karate being included in the Olympics soon, it already looks like a bunny-hopping game of tag and I fear it's gonna get worse over time.

 

[spacetime]

Olympic recognition is a cancer to martial arts. The Olympics butchered Judo and they butchered TKD. Both arts would be better off without them. I am horrified about Karate being included in the Olympics soon, it already looks like a bunny-hopping game of tag and I fear it's gonna get worse over time.

Bunny hopping is the modern evolution of the sport

 

[dudeguyman]

Bunny hopping is the modern evolution of the sport

I was wondering when you were gonna pop up in this thread.

 

[Hotora86]

I was wondering when you were gonna pop up in this thread.

Me too. Surprised he got here so late.

 

[ARIZE]

Globally, the same feeling as the other posters... My main art is Muay thai, then started cross training in ITF TKD. Some of the other guys there, take part in WTF competitions for the fun of it.

So from my experience:
ITF TKD: Good martial art, variations will depend on the country, sub-organization but mostly on the teacher. You'll probably find place with hard core training and other places more "kids friendly". But the main mentality is that TKD should be a martial art, and the practitioner should be able to defend himself.

WTF TKD: More a sport than a martial art. Every aspect of it, is directed towards been able to "still" points from your opponent, inside the Olympic rule sets...

ATA: The McDojo association... At least that's my idea of it, from few videos I've seen. But to be honest, never been to one, and never even met one doing it (Europe here). Are those the guys with the camo belt?

 

[CFGroup]

Garbage!

Spacetime looks good compared to that!

Garbage!

 

[Guestx]

ATA: The McDojo association... At least that's my idea of it, from few videos I've seen. But to be honest, never been to one, and never even met one doing it (Europe here).

Many years ago, when I was about 10 years old, I began taking a TKD class that was connected to the church I was attending. The instructors owned a commercial school but came and offered this class for free just kind of as a public service.

At the time, I had no idea there were different styles of taekwondo. I thought that TKD was TKD and no one ever talked about the STYLE of taekwondo that we were studying.

Anyway, flash forward about 20 years and I was looking into possibly getting back into TKD training and I realized that the forms that I was doing as a kid were totally different from what I was seeing offered through ITF and WTF schools. So I started investigating and sure enough I realized that the school was an ATA school.

What I can say, based upon my remembrance, is that the instructors were pretty good in terms of their form and their ability to perform techniques, and I thought they were also sincere in their desire to teach, but I don't remember getting much in the way of technical instruction about ideas like how to understand proper distance or timing or angles or anything like that. That kind of stuff it was basically up to you to figure out.

Also, the sparring was pretty weak. It was continuous sparring, but only light contact was allowed and never to the face, and again there was no real technical instruction to speak of. It was basically just, "Okay, we taught you guys some technique and forms, so now go use them."

What's hilarious is that at the time we only used gloves and footpads. Now they make everyone suit up like a pitcher at a baseball game, but did the amount of allowed contact increase at all? No.

What the fuck's the point of all these pads if you're still not really allowed to hit each other with any force?

Are those the guys with the camo belt?

Indeed they are.

 

[shincheckin]

im probably the most open minded Muay Thai fighter out there. Rather than pointing out the flaws of other martial arts, I look for the good. Take what is usefull, reject what is useless mindset. Theres good stuff in every martial art, TKD included. This vid was lame but dont let one lame video discount TKD. Both ITF and WTF are good IMO but as Arize said, one is geared more towards sport. Im friends with a TKD black belt who fought in the EFC. Thought it was lame my entire life until he kicked me. It wasnt until i get older and over the tuff guy mindset that I opened my mind to other MA's. At the same time I can connect everything to a martial art, such as tactical shooting, and even k9 protection training, they are both basically martial arts.

 

[Guestx]

im probably the most open minded Muay Thai fighter out there. Rather than pointing out the flaws of other martial arts, I look for the good. Take what is usefull, reject what is useless mindset. Theres good stuff in every martial art, TKD included. This vid was lame but dont let one lame video discount TKD. Both ITF and WTF are good IMO but as Arize said, one is geared more towards sport. Im friends with a TKD black belt who fought in the EFC. Thought it was lame my entire life until he kicked me. It wasnt until i get older and over the tuff guy mindset that I opened my mind to other MA's. At the same time I can connect everything to a martial art, such as tactical shooting, and even k9 protection training, they are both basically martial arts.

I don't think anyone here is attacking taekwondo. This is specifically about the ATA organization and the specific breed of TKD it teaches (Songahm taekwondo).

 

[ARIZE]

Indeed they are.

I find it completely ridiculous... Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's a cultural thing and you guys in the states find it normal, but i cannot imagine a grown ass man wearing a gi and a camo belt...


@shincheckin

Like shadow priest said, i don't think the guys in here disregard TKD. Specially since most of them have some experience with it... But you got to admit, that the ATA seems kinda fishy as an organization, that the WTF is too much sport oriented, and the ITF is not so popular... That makes it difficult for outsiders to have a very positive view about TKD as a legit martial art.

 

[shincheckin]

I find it completely ridiculous... Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's a cultural thing and you guys in the states find it normal, but i cannot imagine a grown ass man wearing a gi and a camo belt...


@shincheckin

Like shadow priest said, i don't think the guys in here disregard TKD. Specially since most of them have some experience with it... But you got to admit, that the ATA seems kinda fishy as an organization, that the WTF is too much sport oriented, and the ITF is not so popular... That makes it difficult for outsiders to have a very positive view about TKD as a legit martial art.

yeah i agree, everything is watered down in the name of profit. ITF is the way to go. TKD is underrated by most, generally speaking, myself included for a long time.

 

[Guestx]

I find it completely ridiculous... Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's a cultural thing and you guys in the states find it normal, but i cannot imagine a grown ass man wearing a gi and a camo belt...

LOL it's not a cultural thing. I'm sure any red-blooded American man would feel the same way and I've wondered if the adults who are part of the ATA just feel silly as shit when they reach that level and have to put that fucking thing on.

What I can tell you is that the ATA has always had two levels of green. When I was taking classes back in the day they called it "low green" and "high green." Low green was just a green belt and high green was a green belt with three black stripes.

I think for a while they moved on from that and denoted high green with a green belt that had a brown stripe running through the middle of it, similar to the red/black belt in the image I posted.

But I guess at some point they went full retard and decided to do the camo belt instead.

@shincheckin

Like shadow priest said, i don't think the guys in here disregard TKD. Specially since most of them have some experience with it... But you got to admit, that the ATA seems kinda fishy as an organization, that the WTF is too much sport oriented, and the ITF is not so popular... That makes it difficult for outsiders to have a very positive view about TKD as a legit martial art.

As I mentioned earlier, I think that an ITF school that practiced TKD with a high level of technical proficiency and intensity would be a good school to train at. You may not get the same level of pure fighting skills that you would pick up at a kickboxing place, but it would be enjoyable and you would still learn to fight and should be able to handle yourself in a self-defense encounter provided you're not greatly outsized. You would learn how to kick well, would learn to use your hands at least better than an untrained person, and would even learn a few throws and chokes.

The thing with the ITF schools that I visited is that they're REALLY focused on making TKD something that anyone can do, so the intensity gets ratcheted down. I remember a conversation I had with an instructor where I mentioned some things I didn't like about a lot of the ITF classes I had seen and how I "didn't think those classes were building effective fighters," and she was like, "C'mon, taekwondo is a hobby for people. It's something people do to stay in shape and have fun."

The thing is, I don't resent schools that exist to offer THAT specific product. If that's what people are looking to get out of their martial arts training, then I don't have a problem with it. But I also think that there should be other schools that are looking to fill the niche for people seeking a harder-edged product.

ATA schools take the "make taekwondo something that anybody can do" philosophy to the extreme. I remember someone once saying that ATA TKD is not really a martial art but is better described as a "martial arts-themed family activity." Perhaps that is the most accurate description.

 

[Guestx]

 

[MisterHappy]

As a (former) practitioner and competitor in both ITF and WTF Taekwondo, I want to slap the shit out of everybody in that video.