Efficacy of Tai Chi, from a grapplers perspective (longish read)

[sha]

Tai Chi can improve BJJ or Grappling skills a lot. The ability to lower internally the center of gravity can make it very difficult to get taken down.

It

 

[Balto]

Tai Chi can improve BJJ or Grappling skills a lot. The ability to lower internally the center of gravity can make it very difficult to get taken down.

It

 

[Uchi Mata]

I did Tai Chi for years along side Judo, one of the few lineages that actually still spars (I actually am a certified instructor in the same lineage as Waitzkin, William CC Chen) and I found it to be very helpful for grappling. Tai Chi teaches dynamic relaxation and power generation through extreme attention to body mechanics, it's not a bad martial art at all. Its sparring looks very similar to boxing with kyokushin/shotokan style throws (similar to what you see Machida hit people with in the UFC), though most people tend to have a very Joe Frazier-ish bob and weave style because that style of Tai Chi teaches more upper body mobility for defense than footwork (which I consider one of its big weaknesses). Learning how to root and drop your weight is definitely good for defense, and I still use many of the principles I learned to help me bring solid top pressure in BJJ, and if I do say so myself Tai Chi helped me hit like a Mack truck whereas when I was only doing Korean martial arts I had very little power.

If nothing else, Tai Chi gives you great body awareness and a conscious sense of the location of your center of gravity and the directions in which you're vulnerable to off balancing which is valuable in any grappling art. I would never train it to the exclusion of BJJ or Judo, but it's a relaxing and somewhat useful complement.

 

[Grappleboxing]

I assume he's talking about Yang Jwing Ming? Very good Qin Na (kung fu joint locks) practitioner.

Some of that stuff can be applied in BJJ, but it's not a 1-to-1 fit because the positions on the ground are just so different. Still, I find it interesting to watch just for my own personal curiosity.

Ah, I searched Jwing Ming's name and found a lot of tai chi books he read. Interesting stuff, I might pick up a copy from the future.

I find tai chi interesting because might have interesting applications for grappling.

 

[santaslilhelper*]

Hey great read, thanks for the judoka perspective. I'd have to say this is a good assessment of how the body moves in accordance with Tai-Chi principles. It gets so cerebral and free flowing once you can really feel your way through the forms and develop your chi, defending a takedown is as easy as walking eventually.

To really compete of course on a high level you would have to be a powerful person with great athletic conditioning and most of the techniques are not practiced with explosiveness in mind. So I would also agree with what you've said about Judo, Bjj, or Wrestling being much better in an MMA bout or a street fight.

 

[Os3y3ris]

I assume he's talking about Yang Jwing Ming? Very good Qin Na (kung fu joint locks) practitioner.

Yep.

Some of that stuff can be applied in BJJ, but it's not a 1-to-1 fit because the positions on the ground are just so different.

I agree. You have to translate it, but it works when you do, especially from the 50/50.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Ah, I searched Jwing Ming's name and found a lot of tai chi books he read. Interesting stuff, I might pick up a copy from the future.

I find tai chi interesting because might have interesting applications for grappling.

I really don't like his stuff, he produces a bunch of books on a bunch of different arts without really having a lot of credentials in any of them. If you're looking for a good tai chi book may I recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/BODY-MECHANICS-Tai-Chi-Chuan/dp/B000JV7TDQ

William Chen is all about body mechanics, there's 0% mysticism, no mention of 'chi' as some magical force, and he is one of the few tai chi guys to have participated in full contact fights (in Shanghai in the 40s). He comes from fighting and he's interested in fighting, maybe the only tai chi guy who really is.

 

[Grappleboxing]

I really don't like his stuff, he produces a bunch of books on a bunch of different arts without really having a lot of credentials in any of them. If you're looking for a good tai chi book may I recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/BODY-MECHANICS-Tai-Chi-Chuan/dp/B000JV7TDQ

William Chen is all about body mechanics, there's 0% mysticism, no mention of 'chi' as some magical force, and he is one of the few tai chi guys to have participated in full contact fights (in Shanghai in the 40s). He comes from fighting and he's interested in fighting, maybe the only tai chi guy who really is.

Are there any other books you would recommend? I don't plan on doing/learning Tai Chi, but would like to learn the theory and body mechanics behind it. The example you gave has body mechanics. Are there any other books you would recommend to a complete beginner?

 

[Leify]

Exactly how does one internally lower his center of gravity vs externally lowering it?

By diverting your chakra to the root. Duh.

Also helpful if you ever find yourself in prison.

 

[masada555]

When he pushes your hips, take his arm(s)

 

[mysteriousnwza]

if my memory doesnt fail this guy was mentioned in the book of waitzkin

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[Uchi Mata]

Are there any other books you would recommend? I don't plan on doing/learning Tai Chi, but would like to learn the theory and body mechanics behind it. The example you gave has body mechanics. Are there any other books you would recommend to a complete beginner?

You can't really learn the body mechanics from a book. It takes a long time and is very experiential. You really have to feel it to get an idea of what to do, and you won't know if you're doing it right or wrong until a knowledgeable person works with you and can tell you first hand. This book is a good description of what is going on, but as an internal art (i.e. concerned with the internal alignment and connection of bones/muscles/ligaments) there's nothing you can really see going on that would allow you to teach yourself. Sorry.

 

[QingTian]

I think tai chi has some nice useful concepts. Beyond that I haven't seen much high level stuff.

The 'root' of your problem is that it's easier to learn grappling defense than offense. I don't think a dabbler in tai chi would be able to stop a Judo BB or good wrestler.

I used Chinese martial arts principles and learned balance very early while beginning Judo. I was very hard to throw early on, even for some black belts. Well, until I ran into people who really knew how to throw. Then offense becomes more important.

 

[cuality]

This is why all takedown sports have rules to force the action and prohibit pure defense.

Just playing pure defense is too easy, especially if no strikes are allowed.

I don't think Sumo does specifically, which is why I like the premise. In a similar fashion, freestyle wrestling gives points for putting someone out the circle. More positive reinforcement for positional dominance than a threatening penalty like in judo.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

The instructor I learned Tai Chi from was a older guy, almost 60 years old, and a judo black belt. I remember he started Tai chi after retiring from judo competition.


I would like to go back to doing tai chi somewhere, but I don't think I could afford to pay for it and the no-gi sub wrestling club I'm going back to this week (couple months out with injury). I do have my texts and books from when I took it for college credit, guess I could just do it on my own. Get one of those swee kung fu uniforms too. For serious.

 

[rmongler]

I don't think Sumo does specifically, which is why I like the premise. In a similar fashion, freestyle wrestling gives points for putting someone out the circle. More positive reinforcement for positional dominance than a threatening penalty like in judo.

'old man' wrestling is perfect for drilling balance, cant touch ground with anything but your feet or go out of bounds. i like sumo but my pet peeve there is that the circle is a little too small for more dynamic action.

 

[surfer dude]

Maybe I'm missing something about standup grappling, but if I can't establish my grips and press my hips into someone, I don't know how to take them down.

Yes, given this comment, you are missing metric shat tons about stand up grappling.

It's definitely not an offensive martial art, and he likes to remind me that in a real fight he thinks I would take it easily. But nonetheless, if I was the aggressor, and my sole goal was to kick his ass, and his sole goal was to stop me; a grappler of over five years from doing so, I'm not sure I would succeed.

Based on your extremely limited takedown mechanics, neither am I.

tldr: Tai chi techniques would likely never fair well in a competition of martial artists against martial artists like mma, because it lacks offense. But for pure self-defense, where your opponent likely knows nothing about fighting and has shit cardio, I'm pretty sold on it's legitimacy.

That is the worst endorsement I have read in a long time. Against a couch potato it is totally legit!

My wager is that the average high school wrestlers I have rolled with would have him on his back, counting ceiling tiles like a $2 hooker, before he could say chi power.

 

[jujijimmy]

so you have been training Bjj and Thai kick boxing. Is it any wonder your wank at takedowns

 

[cuality]

'old man' wrestling is perfect for drilling balance, cant touch ground with anything but your feet or go out of bounds

Not sure what you are talking about, but this 'old man' wrestling is basically the takedown grappling style that I promote.

i like sumo but my pet peeve there is that the circle is a little too small for more dynamic action.

I don't think it's too small for the sumo, where the main premise IS to push them out the circle. Sure for a takedown driven sport it could be bigger, but we train in the 8x8 circles and like the challenge of staying inside it and getting the takedown.

 

[Douwe Geluk]

Everything has its own value. Some people want to fight in a ring or cage and they practise that way.

Some people want to practise mind body and spirit an some selfdefense and there Tai Chi comes in.

Tai Chi also has a lot of health benefits,

The efficiency depends on the person and the way he is training. No need to practise a Tai Chi form only to fight against a boxer.

That is just stupid