Elbow Control: Explanation and Ideas

[jack36767]

Disclaimer #1: Loooong post, I will also insert common pitfalls I have experienced as an athlete or coach, you have been warned

EDIT: I'm also going to break it up into several posts because I want sleep and to give this my proper ADHD and OCD mix of focus and detail. So bear with me please, this is as much a mental exercise for me as education for you guys

AHEM, Disclaimer #2: In this thread I will post links to videos that are behind FLO's paywall as additional study material that add to but are not essential for learning what I am talking about. While I am a proud Round Earth Shill for the Illuminati Globalist overlords. I am not however a shill for Flosports, I am simply trying to help people find good resources they may or may not know that existed.

Spoiler: Table of Contents

1. What is Elbow Control and Key points
2. Hi-C/Double/Duck
3. Batirov/Elbow Pull Inside Reach Single
4. Shrug/Throw-Bye
5. Boot Scoot
6. Elbow Pass off of head tie

That out of the way, in this thread I am going to talk about Elbow Control something a little different than the typical Inside Tie and Collar Ties "usually" taught to the average middle/high school wrestler or bjj person trying to learn takedowns. The obvious asterisk being that John Smith and Oklahoma State are known for their use of Elbow Control and ipso facto will be the source of a lot the info on this awesome position/tie-up

What is Elbow Control you ask? Mike Mal of Flo breaks it down

Let's go over some essential points, that you will see repeated ad nauseam in the videos posted throughout

1. You are grabbing your opponents arm around the triceps/armpit, I have found that the sweet spot is right above the Tricept. Your thumb is to the OUTSIDE, the thumb inside is a pushing grip and is used for posting the opponent's arm which we are not studying right now
2. The best way I have found to explain how to control their arm once you establish elbow control is "Pull your pinkie to your shoulder" this takes their arm out of position. Once you have Elbow control their arm should belong to you now, they only get it back if you let them or attack
3. The beautiful thing about this tie is that it helps stop you from reaching something that in general shouldn't be done too much, you just crowd them in good position and take control as they grab you
4. You must learn how to roll your shoulder to prevent or break their thumb block
5. You want your head OPPOSITE of the side you are attacking
6. If you get good at this tie you can completely shut down someones offense.. and frustrate themselves trying to get their arm back giving you elbow passes

Here is a clinic video of John Smith talking about Elbow Control

High-Crotch/Double/Duck:
This is BY FAR the technique most commonly associated with this technique due to the success 6x World/Olympic Champion John Smith had with this technique to the point that later in his career he was barely hitting his oft referred to low single. I consider the Hi-Crotch/Double/Duck to all be variations of the same basic principle/technique rather than completely separate or different techniques.

*I would recommend the double or duck versions to bjj people because the Hi-Crotch variation tends to lead to crackdowns which leaves one vulnerable to crucifix's and omoplata's
A quick highlight of Smith using the Hi-C variation (on an 8x world champ btw)

Here are some instructionals on the techniques, I am crashing so I will have to add details, points, and the other techniques tomorrow



http://www.flowrestling.org/video/1242417-datons-elbow-control-hic#.WZJ6K1F97IU

 

[ArtemV]

It is a really good position and opens up a really nice high-c - I love it. Soslan Ramonov uses this elbow control a lot iirc.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Man I love John Smith's style. Him and Sanderson are probably my to favorite American wrestlers, so slick.

 

[Foxflechette57]

nice

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Nice post. Great details. Surprisingly no flaming either

 

[nefti]

Bjj should look to wrestling/sambo/old school judo for more grip/control ideas

 

[rmongler]

*I would recommend the double or duck versions to bjj people because the Hi-Crotch variation tends to lead to crackdowns which leaves one vulnerable to crucifix's and omoplata's

I don't think the crackdown is as vulnerable to crucifix's as people might think, if you're willing to funk with it that is. Then, it's no more vulnerable than NLDHG or RHG are, which are each all pretty much the same situation, differing in where you are rotated around the leg.

It was Smith's highest scoring sequence for a reason after all over his career; you can use it to get away with takedowns even when you 'shouldn't'.

 

[jack36767]

Nice post. Great details. Surprisingly no flaming either

I'm trying to behave

 

[jack36767]

I don't think the crackdown is as vulnerable to crucifix's as people might think, if you're willing to funk with it that is. Then, it's no more vulnerable than NLDHG or RHG are, which are each all pretty much the same situation, differing in where you are rotated around the leg.

It was Smith's highest scoring sequence for a reason after all over his career; you can use it to get away with takedowns even when you 'shouldn't'.

I also don't prefer to teach crackdown as a "go to" for the majority of people either to be fair

 

[yetanother]

I don't think the crackdown is as vulnerable to crucifix's as people might think, if you're willing to funk with it that is. Then, it's no more vulnerable than NLDHG or RHG are, which are each all pretty much the same situation, differing in where you are rotated around the leg.

It was Smith's highest scoring sequence for a reason after all over his career; you can use it to get away with takedowns even when you 'shouldn't'.

What's NLDHG or RHG?

 

[rmongler]

What's NLDHG or RHG?

Abbreviating deep half guard (near leg) and reverse half guard.

 

[Dirty Holt]

I don't think the crackdown is as vulnerable to crucifix's as people might think, if you're willing to funk with it that is. Then, it's no more vulnerable than NLDHG or RHG are, which are each all pretty much the same situation, differing in where you are rotated around the leg.

It was Smith's highest scoring sequence for a reason after all over his career; you can use it to get away with takedowns even when you 'shouldn't'.

I train with Baret Yoshida often. Crackdowns will get you into crucifix. As a matter of fact, I completely stopped going to it in scrambles because I would blow an entire round in crucifix almost every single time I went to crackdown or a Hi-C scramble.

 

[jack36767]

I train with Baret Yoshida often. Crackdowns will get you into crucifix. As a matter of fact, I completely stopped going to it in scrambles because I would blow an entire round in crucifix almost every single time I went to crackdown or a Hi-C scramble.

Are there any important points or details I've missed so far?

 

[rmongler]

I train with Baret Yoshida often.

Well i if anyone would do it, it would be Barret Yoshida.

But i suppose what im really saying is, how many Yoshidas or Marcelos are out there in the world? Though if using crackdowns became more common, specializing in the crucifix might probably become more common too, but isn't now, is my meaning.

I dunno, sometimes i get ideas in my head and get excited about them and don't want to let them go until i see it played out. I do think there's potential there in the context of ibjjf rules, if you're willing to turn to your back momentarily to rhg or dhg situations before 'sweeping', precisely to avoid dangers like the crucifix, after using it to get someone's butt down to the mat in the first place.

I just look at something like this,



and this,



and this,



and think to myself, theres a conceptual relationship here.


Anyways, i think the highlighting of how elbow ties are used here is pretty great, and ties together a lot of things that didn't quite seem to go together before; you can clearly see how Smith using the grip to pull works to initiate pretty much all of his best offense. It's also a highly 'available' grip in neutral as well, something that can go far in addressing the old pattycake/'i don't know what to do with my hands' problem you too often see in bjj stand-up.

 

[jack36767]

Part Two: Batirov/Elbow Pull Inside Reach Single
This is actually my favorite technique from Elbow Control. While there are many variations of Elbow Control set-ups to head inside singles my favorite is the variation used by 2x Olympic Champ Mavlet Batirov. Explained here by Micheal Martin

Several key points to go over

1. As always you want your head on the opposite side of your elbow control and single leg
2. It isn't mentioned in the video but one of the best things about this attack is that it lets you attack both sides of the body without switching your lead leg (in the videos I'll show of Batirov hitting it he's a lefty lead but he hits it to his right side. Just make sure that you have your head on the opposite side of where you are going
3. When pulling the Elbow, don't pull it straight back if possible, pull it straight past you at a roughly 45 degree angle the opposite way (if this confuses you video shows it well.
4. You can do a little level change fake with your free hand on the side of your head to throw them out of position or mislead them as to where you are attacking, and it lets non athletic people use a very basic feint/fake with low risk
5. While you can get the Elbow Control and just go for the shot immediately like John Smith would do with his Hi-C/Duck. You can use the Elbow Control and yank/snap them down or back even a few times and they will naturally pull their body up making the shot easier
6. He also shows makes to get Elbow Control when people start trying to stop you from getting it at the end of the video
7. Once you get the hang of this you will be shocked at how easy people fall on their face

The following two highlights vids show him hitting the knee pull including the setups shown in the previous video. There is overlap in the highlights and other techniques mixed in but what can ya do
First video. Collection of his best techniques and each one replayed multiple times including slow motion


Highlight video that shows the knee pull a bunch


As always questions are welcome

 

[JohnForlivio2]

Is this thread dead or do you still plan on adding onto it at some point?

Great stuff and very interested on the rest

 

[tekkenfan]

Disclaimer #1: Loooong post, I will also insert common pitfalls I have experienced as an athlete or coach, you have been warned

EDIT: I'm also going to break it up into several posts because I want sleep and to give this my proper ADHD and OCD mix of focus and detail. So bear with me please, this is as much a mental exercise for me as education for you guys

AHEM, Disclaimer #2: In this thread I will post links to videos that are behind FLO's paywall as additional study material that add to but are not essential for learning what I am talking about. While I am a proud Round Earth Shill for the Illuminati Globalist overlords. I am not however a shill for Flosports, I am simply trying to help people find good resources they may or may not know that existed.

Spoiler: Table of Contents

1. What is Elbow Control and Key points
2. Hi-C/Double/Duck
3. Batirov/Elbow Pull Inside Reach Single
4. Shrug/Throw-Bye
5. Boot Scoot
6. Elbow Pass off of head tie

That out of the way, in this thread I am going to talk about Elbow Control something a little different than the typical Inside Tie and Collar Ties "usually" taught to the average middle/high school wrestler or bjj person trying to learn takedowns. The obvious asterisk being that John Smith and Oklahoma State are known for their use of Elbow Control and ipso facto will be the source of a lot the info on this awesome position/tie-up

What is Elbow Control you ask? Mike Mal of Flo breaks it down

Let's go over some essential points, that you will see repeated ad nauseam in the videos posted throughout

1. You are grabbing your opponents arm around the triceps/armpit, I have found that the sweet spot is right above the Tricept. Your thumb is to the OUTSIDE, the thumb inside is a pushing grip and is used for posting the opponent's arm which we are not studying right now
2. The best way I have found to explain how to control their arm once you establish elbow control is "Pull your pinkie to your shoulder" this takes their arm out of position. Once you have Elbow control their arm should belong to you now, they only get it back if you let them or attack
3. The beautiful thing about this tie is that it helps stop you from reaching something that in general shouldn't be done too much, you just crowd them in good position and take control as they grab you
4. You must learn how to roll your shoulder to prevent or break their thumb block
5. You want your head OPPOSITE of the side you are attacking
6. If you get good at this tie you can completely shut down someones offense.. and frustrate themselves trying to get their arm back giving you elbow passes

Here is a clinic video of John Smith talking about Elbow Control

High-Crotch/Double/Duck:
This is BY FAR the technique most commonly associated with this technique due to the success 6x World/Olympic Champion John Smith had with this technique to the point that later in his career he was barely hitting his oft referred to low single. I consider the Hi-Crotch/Double/Duck to all be variations of the same basic principle/technique rather than completely separate or different techniques.

*I would recommend the double or duck versions to bjj people because the Hi-Crotch variation tends to lead to crackdowns which leaves one vulnerable to crucifix's and omoplata's
A quick highlight of Smith using the Hi-C variation (on an 8x world champ btw)

Here are some instructionals on the techniques, I am crashing so I will have to add details, points, and the other techniques tomorrow



http://www.flowrestling.org/video/1242417-datons-elbow-control-hic#.WZJ6K1F97IU

its kinda hard to use them as said above cause most bjj guys only try to get wrist and collar ties and throw their hips straight back not understanding really what to do its hard to set someone up when they dont know the positions

 

[jack36767]

Eh what can ya do

 

[rmongler]

Guys who tunnel vision on the collar tie are offering themselves up as sacrifices to the god of throw-bys.

 

[JohnForlivio2]

Eh what can ya do

I’d definitely appreciate the rest of the options off elbow control like the throw by, boot scoot, etc.

Really like the details of the breakdowns that you’ve done so far