England -Father battered to death with cricket bat by gang stealing his children's Bikes

[MayhemMonkey]

Then you're not up for correction? You just have a poorly proposed position that you're unwilling to change in the face of either empiricism, or worse ethical arguments?

I provided numbers at the start of the thread that you just ignored.... fine, show me your evidence. But as Ive stated, being able to show that more people use them in defense doesnt in anyway mean that it shows they should be legalised. Those cases of it being used in defense doesnt prevent all the cases of it being used to kill and maim people

 

[Greoric]

I provided numbers at the start of the thread that you just ignored.... fine, show me your evidence. But as Ive stated, being able to show that more people use them in defense doesnt in anyway mean that shows they should be legalised. Those cases of it being used in defense doesnt prevent all the cases of it being used to kill and maim people

I posted them for you above mate. Not like you'd be convinced by stats if you're not convinced by the ethical argument though. Your decision.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

I posted them for you above mate. Not like you'd be convinced by stats if you're not convinced by the ethical argument though. Your decision.

Editor’s note, April 27th, 2018, 10: 15 am EST: Gary Kleck has removed his research paper online. According to Reason, it was pointed out by National Review’s Robert VerBruggen “that Kleck treats the CDC’s surveys discussed in this paper as if they were national in scope, as Kleck’s original survey was, but they apparently were not. From VerBruggen’s own looks at CDC’s raw data, it seems that over the course of the three years, the following 15 states were surveyed: Alaska, Colorado, Hawaii, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Montana, Ohio, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia. (Those states, from 2000 census data, contained around 27 percent of the U.S. population.)

Informed of this, Kleck says he will recalculate the degree to which CDC’s survey work indeed matches or corroborates” his own studies. An earlier version of Kleck’s paper, published April 25, can be seen here.]

show me the nationwide numbers then? so there were still almost a million offensive gun usages

Id rather prevent the offensive gun usages completely

 

[Greoric]

I have nunchucks, a bat, a sword and 3 knives in different locations in my house..... did you really think those weapons just came off the top of my head earlier?

I also have 2 dogs, one of which is a doberman. So Im pretty secure without the need of a gun

I hope you don't find out how inadequate those are running up against a few motivated sociopaths wanting to take your shit.

 

[Greoric]

show me the nationwide numbers then?

The statistical power of that study is sufficient enough to extrapolate for national numbers.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

I hope you don't find out how inadequate those are running up against a few motivated sociopaths wanting to take your shit.

Ive also done muay thai for years along with some BJJ. Also my doberman is trained to attack on command, and they are naturally protective so Im perfectly safe.

if guns were legalised I wouldnt feel that way

 

[MayhemMonkey]

The statistical power of that study is sufficient enough to extrapolate for national numbers.

no its not, provide nationwide numbers or just stop quoting me

 

[Greoric]

no its not, provide nationwide numbers or just stop quoting me

Why is that needed? The data was taken from millions of people in several states. Why is that literature underpowered?

 

[MayhemMonkey]

Why is that needed? The data was taken from millions of people in several states. Why is that literature underpowered?

because we are comparing the USA to the UK.... not part of the USA to part of the UK. Either post the nationwide numbers or stop quoting me

 

[Greoric]

because we are comparing the USA to the UK.... not part of the USA to part of the UK. Either post the nationwide numbers or stop quoting me

No. We're not comparing anecdotes at all. Here we're comparing the usage of firearms defensively as compared to their usage offensively in the US. They're used defensively multiples of times more than in the commission of crimes.

So again. Why are the national numbers relevant if you have no problem with the literature being sufficiently powered statistically?

 

[MayhemMonkey]

No. We're not comparing anecdotes at all. Here we're comparing the usage of firearms defensively as compared to their usage offensively in the US. They're used defensively multiples of times more than in the commission of crimes.

in those certain states that amount to 27% of the total US population

who said anything about anecdotes? Im asking you to provide nationwide numbers yet you refuse..... why?

 

[panamaican]

Would you kindly rephrase your position then? Amazing how the debates with you always include assertions that people don't have your position right, followed by a refusal to articulate the correct one....

And what sneak? I thought it was a pretty safe assumption you weren't including gov't when you mentioned an unarmed population? If not that's a rather absurdly retarded position to take, right? No personal arms for defense of your country at all. Eeesh...

Why would I rephrase my position, it's right here in this thread. There's no refusal to articulate the correct one, there's a refusal to re-type it when the original post states it exactly. If you lack the capacity to read and respond to already written language, how do you plan to actually debate the points?

For example, "what's the sneak", I wrote exactly what it was. Basic reading comprehension is a pretty low bar and yet it continues to elude you.

 

[aitkenmike]

http://www.wishtv.com/news/local-ne...er-customer-s-gun-falls-into-couch/1262813144

If only the US had more guns, someone could have shot that kid before he fired one off! I bet the UK wish they had an armed populace to keep themselves safe from the armed populace.

 

[oleDirtyBast4rd]

there is violence and break ins

Then it isnt as safe as you pretend it is.

all she needs is a dog and she is 65 and lives alone.

Bro... for your mother's sake I hope that never is tested. A dog is NOT sufficient protection from a motivated attacker. Police k9 dogs are overpowered and killed and they are trained to take people down.

well basing it off of this thread it would be petite women and the elderly...... you would not qualify

I'm petite compared to a 6'7 300 lb. Man.

I also have 2 dogs, one of which is a doberman. So Im pretty secure without the need of a gun

Again dude..your dogs would be fucked against an armed attacker.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

Then it isnt as safe as you pretend it is.



Bro... for your mother's sake I hope that never is tested. A dog is NOT sufficient protection from a motivated attacker. Police k9 dogs are overpowered and killed and they are trained to take people down.



I'm petite compared to a 6'7 300 lb. Man.



Again dude..your dogs would be fucked against an armed attacker.

its safe enough that people still dont feel the need to own guns, so its still far safer than your country will ever hope to be.

na mate, sorry Im using this thread to choose who are disadvantaged.... and you guys were all about petite women and the elderly, so again you dont qualify.

you act like i would let my dog fight the intruders alone, my dogs(my other is a bull terrier cross) and me with a bat are more than enough to deal with any junkie that breaks into homes in Scotland. The fact that Americans think they need guns to keep themselves safe at home shows how fucked up your society is. No other nation wants your problems

 

[oleDirtyBast4rd]

its safe enough that people still dont feel the need to own guns, so its still far safer than your country will ever hope to be.

If it's safe now, having guns introduced wouldnt change that... guns dont commit crimes on their own after all

na mate, sorry Im using this thread to choose who are disadvantaged.... and you guys were all about petite women and the elderly, so again you dont qualify.

So you're more interested in "winning" an internet debate instead of having an actual discussion? Btw... who here said only the elderly and petite women were disadvantaged? I'd surely be disadvantaged vs Stipe Miocic no?

you act like i would let my dog fight the intruders alone, my dogs(my other is a bull terrier cross) and me with a bat are more than enough to deal with any junkie that breaks into homes in Scotland.

Great, you have found a system that works for you. Unfortunately for your mother, shes not in the same position.

 

[MayhemMonkey]

If it's safe now, having guns introduced wouldnt change that... guns dont commit crimes on their own after all



So you're more interested in "winning" an internet debate instead of having an actual discussion? Btw... who here said only the elderly and petite women were disadvantaged? I'd surely be disadvantaged vs Stipe Miocic no?



Great, you have found a system that works for you. Unfortunately for your mother, shes not in the same position.

how can you say that? you have no idea what would happen if guns were introduced, so save the "guns dont kill people" schtick

Im not interested in this debate at all anymore, because Ive been talking to brick walls with others on the exact same points. so "winning" means fuck all to me... so unless you have an argument I havent heard yet then Im all ears, but until then Im bored of this and you can just read the thread.

my mum lives in a nice area than me, and I still feel perfectly comfortable with her not having a gun. As is she, so just you worry about your country and your grandma

 

[oleDirtyBast4rd]

how can you say that? you have no idea what would happen if guns were introduced, so save the "guns dont kill people" schtick

Because guns are an inanimate object that's how. If the community is safe now, then it would be safe after guns

Save the schtick? Are you suggesting guns shoot themselves?

my mum lives in a nice area than me, and I still feel perfectly comfortable with her not having a gun. As is she, so just you worry about your country and your grandm

Yet by your own admission there has been violence and break ins. If a violent attacker wanted to harm your mother, she would be fucked. Her dog would be inadequate protection. Do you disagree?

 

[MayhemMonkey]

Because guns are an inanimate object that's how. If the community is safe now, then it would be safe after guns

Save the schtick? Are you suggesting guns shoot themselves?



Yet by your own admission there has been violence and break ins. If a violent attacker wanted to harm your mother, she would be fucked. Her dog would be inadequate protection. Do you disagree?

so you are really trying to say that having weapons designed to kill people widely circulated in british society would have no effect on it at all?

answer this then, how many children would die at schools in america if guns were banned? in comparison to current rates? what made those losers feel empowered to take the lives of all those children? the gun

who the fuck do you think are breaking into houses in scotland? its junkies looking for shit to sell so they can get more heroin, my mums bull mastiff is more than enough to scare off a fucking junkie or 2. Also she's pretty handy with her mini ball bat. Again, dont you worry about my mum. Just you focus on your own society and your own family. The UK doesnt want or need similar gun laws to America. As stated no other western nation wants similar laws

 

[oleDirtyBast4rd]

so you are really trying to say that having weapons designed to kill people widely circulated in british society would have no effect on it at all?

Are you suggesting law abiding citizens suddenly become violent when in possession of firearms?

answer this then, how many children would die at schools in america if guns were banned? in comparison to current rates? what made those losers feel empowered to take the lives of all those children? the gun

China has some real nasty mass murder issues with knives in schools. You dont seem to care if people are victims as long as it's not by gun

As stated no other western nation wants similar laws

Freedom can be scary. I thought scots would know better then most what it's like to be under the thumb of government