Everyone should celebrate Sept 11 . . . 1683

Another major strong suit to the Mongol army was that they'd force those they conquered to supply them with men for their army. So they'd have a mix of their own horsemen, and then the benefit of taking specialists from each region they were in control of. Diverse army = dangerous army in those days.

The Battle of Didgori comparatively has much better information (at least on Wiki). I'll have to do some further reading about the subject in general, though. So very interesting. This is also why I said it could be better served as its own thread, haha, because the discussion is immense/endless.

To be fair, the conversation is much better than the shit @ReAnimator Reagan was trying to drum up here.

And much better than the standard discourse in the WR as a whole.

Also, just to add.

The Mongols likely did more to blunt the expansion of Islam than all the Christian Kingdoms combined by absolutely savaging them for decades(scorched earth & skull pyramids), and so to did their descendants.

The Mongols would also "double tap" their conquests, they'd appear to leave only to come back a few days or even weeks later to kill all the people that were in hiding while they were burying the dead. They did this a lot to the Muslims.
 
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To be fair, the conversation is much better than the shit @ReAnimator Reagan was trying to drum up here.

And much better than the standard discourse in the WR as a whole.

Also, just to add.

The Mongols likely did more to blunt the expansion of Islam than all the Christian Kingdoms combined by absolutely savaging them for decades(scorched earth & skull pyramids), and so to did their descendants.

The Mongols would also "double tap" their conquests, they'd appear to leave only to come back a few days or even weeks later to kill all the people that were in hiding while they were burying the dead. They did this a lot to the Muslims.

I'm so proud of the Mongols. Its messed up for me to cheer for the slaughter of innocents but whenever I read about Mongol conquests in the Middle East, I can't help but picture a Mongol general standing over the defeated muslims, yelling "Where is your god now?"

But the Muslims were the first to permanently turn back the Mongols correct? By using similar cavalry tactics by kidnapping central asian turkic people and creating the Mamluks?
 
I'm so proud of the Mongols. Its messed up for me to cheer for the slaughter of innocents but whenever I read about Mongol conquests in the Middle East, I can't help but picture a Mongol general standing over the defeated muslims, yelling "Where is your god now?"

But the Muslims were the first to permanently turn back the Mongols correct? By using similar cavalry tactics by kidnapping central asian turkic people and creating the Mamluks?

Well, they weren't really defeated in Genghis's time or his immediate successors. I mean they had setbacks, but it took a over hundred years till they were really beaten back. The Mamluks did score first major defeat over the Mongols, in 1260, but they continued their dominance in Asia for nearly 100 years after. The Mamluks also likely outnumbered the Mongols 2:1. It wasn't an entire Mongol army, just one Tumen and supporting mercenaries. I mean this defeat predates Kublai's rule even who himself was a very successful Khan.

The last of the Mongol hordes survived late into the 1600s, and their other successor states in India and other areas survived much longer. They ruled in China as the Yuan Dynasty till nearly 1400, and then of course Timur was a successor as well.
 
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Well, they weren't really defeated in Genghis's time or his immediate successors. I mean they had setbacks, but it took a over hundred years till they were really beaten back. The Mamluks did score first major defeat over the Mongols, in 1260, but they continued their dominance in Asia for nearly 100 years after. The Mamluks also likely outnumbered the Mongols 2:1. It wasn't an entire Mongol army, just one Tumen and supporting mercenaries. I mean this defeated predates Kublai's rule even who himself was a very successful Khan.

The last of the Mongol hordes survived late into the 1600s, and their other successor states in India other areas survived much longer. They ruled in China as the Yuan Dynasty till nearly 1400, and then of course Timur was a successor as well.

Ah right thanks for the correction. I just remembered the Mamlukss victory having a significance that had Muslims believing their god saved them.

It was interesting reading about the Mamluks, they were a better armed, heavier armored Mongol army. And now I see they had the numbers as well.
 
To be fair, the conversation is much better than the shit @ReAnimator Reagan was trying to drum up here.

And much better than the standard discourse in the WR as a whole.

Also, just to add.

The Mongols likely did more to blunt the expansion of Islam than all the Christian Kingdoms combined by absolutely savaging them for decades(scorched earth & skull pyramids), and so to did their descendants.

The Mongols would also "double tap" their conquests, they'd appear to leave only to come back a few days or even weeks later to kill all the people that were in hiding while they were burying the dead. They did this a lot to the Muslims.
To the first part: I don't post a ton in here, but do read (mostly due to my phone being shite, and just not wanting to be involved in 20+ page threads that are too hard to keep up with) and I can say that we very much disagree on most things, but that's not an excuse to drag ourselves down to apes slinging poo at one another.

The benefit the Mongols had VS Christians with regards to beating down Islam, was that they were an empire compared to the smaller kingdoms. Easier to field the numbers necessary under those circumstances.

The part about returning to their conquests is worth noting that they never came back to Hungary after Mohi, when the Hungarians had upgraded their defensive status.

I'm so proud of the Mongols. Its messed up for me to cheer for the slaughter of innocents but whenever I read about Mongol conquests in the Middle East, I can't help but picture a Mongol general standing over the defeated muslims, yelling "Where is your god now?"

But the Muslims were the first to permanently turn back the Mongols correct? By using similar cavalry tactics by kidnapping central asian turkic people and creating the Mamluks?
The problem is that for all the devastation they inflicted, they fell victim to the same as everyone else who came through that area: adopted the religious beliefs. Once they started to turn Muslim themselves, their empire(s) began to fall.

Ah right thanks for the correction. I just remembered the Mamlukss victory having a significance that had Muslims believing their god saved them.

It was interesting reading about the Mamluks, they were a better armed, heavier armored Mongol army. And now I see they had the numbers as well.
The specific battle you're referring to is the Battle of Ain Jault (I think that's the spelling).

Baibars is an interesting character himself.
 
To the first part: I don't post a ton in here, but do read (mostly due to my phone being shite, and just not wanting to be involved in 20+ page threads that are too hard to keep up with) and I can say that we very much disagree on most things, but that's not an excuse to drag ourselves down to apes slinging poo at one another.

The benefit the Mongols had VS Christians with regards to beating down Islam, was that they were an empire compared to the smaller kingdoms. Easier to field the numbers necessary under those circumstances.

The part about returning to their conquests is worth noting that they never came back to Hungary after Mohi, when the Hungarians had upgraded their defensive status.


The problem is that for all the devastation they inflicted, they fell victim to the same as everyone else who came through that area: adopted the religious beliefs. Once they started to turn Muslim themselves, their empire(s) began to fall.


The specific battle you're referring to is the Battle of Ain Jault (I think that's the spelling).

Baibars is an interesting character himself.


Yep there it was, that battle. Funny cuz it sounds like a place name that could exist in my country. Its Ain Jalut but one letter doesn't matter.

And actually, the empire from what I understood crumbled because of succession problems and inefficient administration after the empire stretched out too much for the current Mongol ruling system to function as a cohesive entity.
 
To the first part: I don't post a ton in here, but do read (mostly due to my phone being shite, and just not wanting to be involved in 20+ page threads that are too hard to keep up with) and I can say that we very much disagree on most things, but that's not an excuse to drag ourselves down to apes slinging poo at one another.

The benefit the Mongols had VS Christians with regards to beating down Islam, was that they were an empire compared to the smaller kingdoms. Easier to field the numbers necessary under those circumstances.

The part about returning to their conquests is worth noting that they never came back to Hungary after Mohi, when the Hungarians had upgraded their defensive status.


The problem is that for all the devastation they inflicted, they fell victim to the same as everyone else who came through that area: adopted the religious beliefs. Once they started to turn Muslim themselves, their empire(s) began to fall.


The specific battle you're referring to is the Battle of Ain Jault (I think that's the spelling).

Baibars is an interesting character himself.

Well, to the Mongols, the battle of Mohi wasn't a conquest. It was what we would call today, RIF, or Reconnaissance-in-force.

Subutai was literally sent out west to see what the fuck was actually going on over there past the Rus and Muslim kingdoms and what Genghis needed to conquer still to fulfill his objective of global empire.
 
Yep there it was, that battle. Funny cuz it sounds like a place name that could exist in my country. Its Ain Jalut but one letter doesn't matter.

And actually, the empire from what I understood crumbled because of succession problems and inefficient administration after the empire stretched out too much for the current Mongol ruling system to function as a cohesive entity.

I think a lot of it has to do with their successors just weren't as hard as the original Mongols, though their great expanse and succession issues certainly played a part. The successor states were too rich and didn't need to live the nomad lifestyle which forged them into merciless hunters and killers en masse.

Their status as leaders was purely dependent on their ability to wipe the floor with their enemies and once they lost their edge in that regard they would never be able to hold it all together.

The nomad lifestyle sucks and no one would choose to live that way if they really have a choice in that matter, but when they turned away from those roots they lost their greatest strength of being one of a kind badasses.

Now during the rise of the Mongols they wore animal hides and subsisted off their flock and the land, but their successors had essentially all of the wealth contained in Asia and lived that way.
 
I think a lot of it has to do with their successors just weren't as hard as the original Mongols, though their great expanse and succession issues certainly played a part. The successor states were too rich and didn't need to live the nomad lifestyle which forged them into merciless hunters and killers en masse.

Their status as leaders was purely dependent on their ability to wipe the floor with their enemies and once they lost their edge in that regard they would never be able to hold it all together.

The nomad lifestyle sucks and no one would choose to live that way if they really have a choice in that matter, but when they turned away from those roots they lost their greatest strength of being one of a kind badasses.

Now during the rise of the Mongols they wore animal hides and subsisted off their flock and the land, but their successors had essentially all of the wealth contained in Asia and lived that way.

Well right undoubtedly. Kublai certanly didnt grow up hungry and aggressive like Temujin. But I do remember their being civil wars like Kublai and his younger brother, the lack of support from the other khans as they waged war campaigns. Although you do bring up a very good point in the change in the attitude of the Mongols.
 
Their dreams of empire turned into what the various sects of Islam were doing in the middle East prior to the rise of the Turks and Mamluks. Fighting amongst themselves and their other neighbours.

Their tolerance towards religion in the early times was definitely ahead of the curve. Once they truly settled in their respective locations and adopted Islam was the beginning of the end.

I think we're mostly in agreement about their decline, its too simplifying to say it was one thing or another. A combination of it all is where the real answer is. It's funny how these great generals like Alexander or Genghis forge these amazing huge empires but then they rapidly fall apart after their passing.
 
celebrate 9/12!!!

They day we ended the Islamic Caliphate forever!!!! Woot!!!!


The Battle of Vienna (German: Schlacht am Kahlen Berge or Kahlenberg; Polish: bitwa pod Wiedniem or odsiecz wiedeńska (The Relief of Vienna); Modern Turkish: İkinci Viyana Kuşatması, Ottoman Turkish: Beç Ḳalʿası Muḥāṣarası) took place at Kahlenberg Mountain near Vienna on 12 September 1683[1] after the imperial city had been besieged by the Ottoman Empire for two months. The battle was fought by the Habsburg Monarchy, the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Holy Roman Empire, under the command of King John III Sobieski against the Ottomans and their vassal and tributary states. The battle marked the first time the Commonwealth and the Holy Roman Empire had cooperated militarily against the Ottomans, and it is often seen as a turning point in history, after which "the Ottoman Turks ceased to be a menace to the Christian world".[18] In the ensuing war that lasted until 1699, the Ottomans lost almost all of Hungary to the Holy Roman Emperor Leopold I.[18]

The battle was won by the combined forces of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nations and the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, the latter represented only by the forces of the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland (the march of the Lithuanian army was delayed, and they reached Vienna after it had been relieved).[19] The Viennese garrison was led by Ernst Rüdiger Graf von Starhemberg, an Austrian subject of Holy Roman Emperor Leopold I. The overall command was held by the senior leader, the King of Poland, John III Sobieski, who led the relief forces.
 
In the broadest sense it's amazing how many Europeans seem to have no idea about the historical invasions and colonization of Europe at the hands of Muslims, that more free Europeans were captured by North African Muslims than slave were sent to North America over the same period. Much less do they consider Anatolia and Levant "stolen land".

im not sure how anatolia and levant are stolen lands in the same way say north and south america were. one was largely a replacement of the nobility and a gradual change of religion while the spanish and european conquest of north america was far more devastating to the people being conquered. anatolia and levant was also the same neighbourhood as the rest of the middle east. they'd been living side by side and interacting with one another for 1000s of years. north and south america and australia with europe not so much.

Only one side of that tale is spoken of (the comparatively brief periods during which Europe took temporary holdings in the M.E.) to maintain narrative necessary to keep the extreme left dominant across the continent.

the only reason the holdings were temporary was because they were beaten back.
 
yelling "Where is your god now?"

and then converts to said god lol

i felt like the mongol conquests was such a pointless thing. like a giant reset of progress only for the mongols to completely adopt the cultures/religions of the places they conquered.
 
To be fair, the conversation is much better than the shit @ReAnimator Reagan was trying to drum up here.

And much better than the standard discourse in the WR as a whole.

Also, just to add.

The Mongols likely did more to blunt the expansion of Islam than all the Christian Kingdoms combined by absolutely savaging them for decades(scorched earth & skull pyramids), and so to did their descendants.

The Mongols would also "double tap" their conquests, they'd appear to leave only to come back a few days or even weeks later to kill all the people that were in hiding while they were burying the dead. They did this a lot to the Muslims.

The Mongol converts did gave a second wind to Islamic expansion, Arabs never managed to venture into India for example.
 
The Mongol converts did gave a second wind to Islamic expansion, Arabs never managed to venture into India for example.

I was talking more in regards to Islam's westward expansion.

Without a doubt the Mongols forced the Muslims to change their focus away from Europe when they were at their absolute zenith.
 
The eighteen-thousand man (and horse) cavalry charge alone makes this a legendary battle in history, perhaps the most legendary. It's difficult to fathom how disciplined those men must've been, to accomplish such a feat. I would call it the pinnacle of warfare, before fire-arms and artillery were prioritized over melee weapons.
 
It's funny how these great generals like Alexander or Genghis forge these amazing huge empires but then they rapidly fall apart after their passing.

i'd like to see a comedy skit where these conquerors are brought back from the dead to see their countries now. Alexander and Genghis would be hilarious.
 
celebrate 9/12!!!

They day we ended the Islamic Caliphate forever!!!! Woot!!!!


The Battle of Vienna (German: Schlacht am Kahlen Berge or Kahlenberg; Polish: bitwa pod Wiedniem or odsiecz wiedeńska (The Relief of Vienna); Modern Turkish: İkinci Viyana Kuşatması, Ottoman Turkish: Beç Ḳalʿası Muḥāṣarası) took place at Kahlenberg Mountain near Vienna on 12 September 1683[1] after the imperial city had been besieged by the Ottoman Empire for two months. The battle was fought by the Habsburg Monarchy, the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Holy Roman Empire, under the command of King John III Sobieski against the Ottomans and their vassal and tributary states. The battle marked the first time the Commonwealth and the Holy Roman Empire had cooperated militarily against the Ottomans, and it is often seen as a turning point in history, after which "the Ottoman Turks ceased to be a menace to the Christian world".[18] In the ensuing war that lasted until 1699, the Ottomans lost almost all of Hungary to the Holy Roman Emperor Leopold I.[18]

The battle was won by the combined forces of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nations and the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, the latter represented only by the forces of the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland (the march of the Lithuanian army was delayed, and they reached Vienna after it had been relieved).[19] The Viennese garrison was led by Ernst Rüdiger Graf von Starhemberg, an Austrian subject of Holy Roman Emperor Leopold I. The overall command was held by the senior leader, the King of Poland, John III Sobieski, who led the relief forces.

<TrumpWrong1>

There is no we here, you're not European. You had nothing to do with it.

It wasn't the end of Islamic Caliphate.. It wasn't even end of the Turks or Turkish aggression in Europe.

Your obvious lack of knowledge in history is blatant. Your opinion on this is nothing but collections of other people's copy pasting.
 
I was talking more in regards to Islam's westward expansion.

Without a doubt the Mongols forced the Muslims to change their focus away from Europe when they were at their absolute zenith.

what @Rod1 said was kind of false. The Muslims arrived in India before the mongols and there were muslim dynasties there already. Even when Timur and the mughal conquests were happening they basically conquered and destroyed other Muslim Dynasties in India.

I think the drive towards Europe was never that serious until the Ottoman period. Even Spain was conquered by a Ummayad Dynasty Raiding force.
 
what @Rod1 said was kind of false. The Muslims arrived in India before the mongols and there were muslim dynasties there already. Even when Timur and the mughal conquests were happening they basically conquered and destroyed other Muslim Dynasties in India.

I think the drive towards Europe was never that serious until the Ottoman period. Even Spain was conquered by a Ummayad Dynasty Raiding force.

While there is certainly some truth that there was no real aggressive European expansion until the Ottomans, I think it would be difficult to reason that there wouldn't have been some sort of retaliation for the Crusades if they didn't have a murderous neighbor rampaging in their backyards.

Genghis Khan quite literally took the wind out of their sails after their victory in the Holy Land.

I really enjoy the stories about how all the Christian Kings assumed Genghis was a Christian because of the carnage he inflicted on Muslims.
 
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