Excellent fact based video on universal basic income

[Der Eisbär]

Apologies in advance as I am on mobile. Personally, I am not a proponent of the the idea of UBI.

While I will not argue a study that is nearly 50 years old, the one cited in the video, I have not had similar a similar experience when dealing with similar programs. When I took over a department recently, I had a number of staffers who went on disability for a number of reasons. The time that a number of them took off ranged from a month to presently over a year and a half. The reasons ranged from serious - actually having surgery on their hands - to ridiculous - depression because a girl wouldn’t play video games with him. All of these individuals had full benefits, including paid sick days, so were free to take days off whenever they so desired without question as long as it was not three concurrent days, at which point you would have to submit for sick leave.

What I got from this is that people when presented with the ability to not work and continue to make the same amount of money will do so and will look to abuse the system.

Furthermore, even when presented with the ability to fund a furthered education such as what has been possible at every place I have worked, I have done a MBA, a second masters and two fellowships through these opportunities, most employees have no desire or drive to further educate themselves and better their lives. Many are complacent in their middle income jobs because they have a roof over their head and food in their stomach.

Even if further education is something that is not desired but moving internally is available, employees will often not take advantage of these postings as it is something new and means learning.

To expand upon this, it has been my experience that employees when given the opportunity for career counseling or guidance do not take advantage of this. In a recent position, we would hold career counseling and mentorship quarterly. Two separate programs, zero individuals out of a group of 63 employees sogned up over four years.

By giving UBI to people I believe it will kill the drive of many individuals because when given the similar opportunities that this video highlighted I have only known two staff members, myself included to take advantage of it. I understand this is anecdotal, but I do value that personal experience highly.

What is your solution then when automation eliminates the vast majority of jobs?

 

[Der Eisbär]

I haven't had a glass of milk in 10+ years. You keep failing on your attacks on me.

Stop derailing my fucking threads

 

[Literally Bricked]

Then the real world came-----

Starting in January 2017, Finland experimented with giving a random sample of 2,000 unemployed people between the ages of 25 and 58 a monthly income of roughly $690; the recipients were not required to have a job; if they did take a job, they would receive the same amount.
The idea was to stimulate people to look for paid work by eradicating gaps in the welfare system; the Finnish government thought that with existing unemployment benefits so high, an unemployed person would eschew getting a job because they would risk losing money by doing so; the more money they made, the lower their social benefits would be. The basic income was meant as an incentive for people to start working.

But now Finland is canceling the program, though the government will not say why. Kela, the Finnish social security agency, asked the government to expand the two-year pilot to a group of employees this year, but the government nixed funding it, meaning the entire program will come to a crashing halt in January 2019.

it just failed miserably in Finland.

edit - judge beat me to it.

The experiment is not over and is ending on schedule. Kela has stated that they will not be releasing results until after the experiment is over so subjects will not change their behaviour.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Cliffs:
-the current welfare state promotes being passive.
-a pilot study of UBI in Canada showed that only 1% of UBI recipients left work, and it was mostly to take care of their children
-UBI of 1,000/month could raise GDP 12% over 8 years
-With a UBI program you could eliminate existing welfare programs

Definitely worth the watch.

Discuss

This current welfare state is like a UBI for select people on the welfare program. They get food stamps, Sec 8, etc, etc. Or is the difference with UBI, the people get to choose what they can spend on?

If our current welfare state is exactly as you think, I fail to see how just giving them the cash to spend on what they want, will change anything.

 

[Fire Belly]

Can't even use bullet points correctly.

 

[superpunch]

Cliffs:
-the current welfare state promotes being passive.
-a pilot study of UBI in Canada showed that only 1% of UBI recipients left work, and it was mostly to take care of their children
-UBI of 1,000/month could raise GDP 12% over 8 years
-With a UBI program you could eliminate existing welfare programs

Definitely worth the watch.

Discuss

I don't know about those numbers, man. I think those numbers are a temporary thing. Like, at first, people are still too glued into social status and responsibilities to fuck off and vacation 24/7/365.

You cover my living expenses.. I'm retiring at 20 years old. Done. Never working again. Volunteering overseas in hostels for a place to live and vacationing off the UBI for the rest of my life. Spending all my free time, which will be all my time, lifting weights, studying math, drinking, and watching TV.

 

[Trotsky]

Everything that I have seen shows that UBI is the most efficient form of redistribution and despite the whining from reductive dolts about how it isn't "common sense," it will be on the horizon, but it will have to undergo some tailoring to avoid redundancy.

it just failed miserably in Finland.

edit - judge beat me to it.

No, it didn't.

Way to keep the propagandists in business.

 

[Headkicktoleg]

Stop derailing my fucking threads

can we please send this shit to the D/S, stop clogging it with nonsense.

 

[Trotsky]

If our current welfare state is exactly as you think, I fail to see how just giving them the cash to spend on what they want, will change anything.

Eliminating huge transaction costs at the margin for administration, eligibility, oversight, etc.

 

[Neph]

My idea is far more nefarious than what many would be willing to swallow.

Personally, I am for culling the human population to a reasonable and sustainable size. Place an emphasis on space exploration, as the Sun will eventually give out and place people in to jobs that they are suited for. Everyone would be given the same food and housing as this would be a global effort.

That is the very short of it as mentioned on mobile.

So that is no solution at all

 

[Der Eisbär]

can we please send this shit to the D/S, stop clogging it with nonsense.

Your in a war room thread about UBI posting about veganism. Fuck thee fuck off.

 

[Der Eisbär]

My idea is far more nefarious than what many would be willing to swallow.

Personally, I am for culling the human population to a reasonable and sustainable size. Place an emphasis on space exploration, as the Sun will eventually give out and place people in to jobs that they are suited for. Everyone would be given the same food and housing as this would be a global effort.

That is the very short of it as mentioned on mobile.

You haven't really thought this through. If you culled most of the population you would be eliminating most of the minds that would be contributing towards innovation and technological progress. We need a large and diverse gene pool. We also need a large pool of people with money creating demand for that innovation and progress.

 

[Der Eisbär]

I don't know about those numbers, man. I think those numbers are a temporary thing. Like, at first, people are still too glued into social status and responsibilities to fuck off and vacation 24/7/365.

You cover my living expenses.. I'm retiring at 20 years old. Done. Never working again. Volunteering overseas in hostels for a place to live and vacationing off the UBI for the rest of my life. Spending all my free time, which will be all my time, lifting weights, studying math, drinking, and watching TV.

Well, right there you said you would spend your time lifting weights and studying math aka improving yourself and creating better contributions for the future. The idea is that if people have more free time to pursue their interests and improving themselves it will lead towards a greater future for all.

 

[Der Eisbär]

Everything that I have seen shows that UBI is the most efficient form of redistribution and despite the whining from reductive dolts about how it isn't "common sense," it will be on the horizon, but it will have to undergo some tailoring to avoid redundancy.



No, it didn't.

Way to keep the propagandists in business.

I'm not sure what the alternative is giving the impending automation conundrum.

You're left with just 2 possible options:
1. Eliminate the population
2. Be content with a tiny tiny number of people having all of the wealth and 99.999% of us being a literal slave underclass.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Eliminating huge transaction costs at the margin for administration, eligibility, oversight, etc.

But I think in his OP, he states that people will be less lazy, and get off dey azz as opposed to what is happening now with current welfare programs.

 

[superpunch]

Well, right there you said you would spend your time lifting weights and studying math aka improving yourself and creating better contributions for the future. The idea is that if people have more free time to pursue their interests and improving themselves it will lead towards a greater future for all.

Lmao me being 180 lbs jacked and really good at the SAT in between a beer and the next TV show while living off the welfare state isn't doing more for society than me working as hard as I can to produce a living in engineering or finance.

 

[Der Eisbär]

This current welfare state is like a UBI for select people on the welfare program. They get food stamps, Sec 8, etc, etc. Or is the difference with UBI, the people get to choose what they can spend on?

If our current welfare state is exactly as you think, I fail to see how just giving them the cash to spend on what they want, will change anything.

The differences are big.

In the current welfare system, there are a number of strings attached. If you're receiving assistance they force you to spend time attending classes, they may force you to take ANY job offer that you get. If you get a job, your benefits go away, and so on.

In a UBI system you get the money regardless.

So let's X person can receive 1000$/month in the current system. They get that money, but they're forced to spend all this time attending jobs classes. They get a job offer to flip burgers for 8$ an hour. It pays 1,120 a month, before taxes. They end up taking home less than a grand a month. This gives incentive to stay on the welfare, look for loopholes, etc.

OR

Person X receives 1000$/month through UBI. They get it no matter what. This covers their basic expenses without having to work. They are now free to pursue higher education or other interests. This pursuit of education, or starting a business, or art, or writing a book, is better for all of us in the long run as this person's time is much more beneficial to society pursuing something greater, than it is flipping burgers.

 

[Der Eisbär]

Lmao me being 180 lbs jacked and really good at the SAT in between a beer and the next TV show while living off the welfare state isn't doing more for society than me working as hard as I can to produce a living in engineering or finance.

Why would you be studying math or taking the SAT if you didn't plan to go on doing anything greater? I am not saying that there wouldn't be anyone content to lay around and do nothing and just take the money. But the studies have shown that it isn't the case for most people.

 

[Neph]

But I think in his OP, he states that people will be less lazy, and get off dey azz as opposed to what is happening now with current welfare programs.

I've seen this put forwards as an argument for increased welfare.

Search times for jobs can be high
The market is better off having the right people in the right job (ie efficiency)
When welfare is so low that you cannot adequately live off it, you must take jobs faster and these may not match your qualifications
The market is therefore inefficient as people are doing work that generates less for the economy than what they could

The same argument exists about education. If you are a smart person but have no money you would be much better off with a safety net that allows you to get that education and then a better job. With a better job you contribute more to society and you will eventually be taxed more, paying society back for its earlier support.

When welfare is absolute shit all you can do is get whatever is out there and if that means you are earning 50% of your potential then so be it. The country is worse off for it too.

 

[Der Eisbär]

But I think in his OP, he states that people will be less lazy, and get off dey azz as opposed to what is happening now with current welfare programs.

Because the data supports this. The strings attached to current welfare VS UBI gives people an incentive to not improve their situation.