Floyd Patterson vs Rocky Marciano

[Boxer]

Rocky was incredily overrated. He was lucky to exist when he did. He had glaring deficiecies. He would never win against Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Lennox, Vitali, Vladimir, Holyfield. He may have never been a champ if he had been born later.

Patterson was fast enough to be competitive at cruiser or heavy if he put on a little weight.

Patterson cleans Rocky with speed and power 8 out of 10 times imho.

He's not overrated unless you try and compare him to "Heavyweights" which people need to realize in Rocky's time the HW division was full of Cruiserweights, they just didn't have that division back then and they also didn't have any quality big men, even Joe Louis and Max Baer barely weighed over 205 lbs for a lot of their career, today that's a tiny water cut away from CW.

I will say this for Rocky though ........ I'm not sure I'd even give him much of a hope against today's Cruiser Weights.
Gassiev, Usyek, Holyfield, prime Haye, James Toney, hmmm nope.

If you look at his walk in weight Rocky was really a water cut away from Light Heavy weight, but tbf that just shows how tough he was fighting bigger guys and never losing.

 

[mozfonky]

It's always been an interesting coincidence to me how Cus ended up training two world champs in Patterson and Tyson whom both were amazing fighters that were heavily hampered by their mental issues. From what I've read on Patterson it sounded like he dealt with some serious anxiety issues.

it's also ironic how cus was into the mental more than the physical.

 

[eternaldarkness]

He's not overrated unless you try and compare him to "Heavyweights" which people need to realize in Rocky's time the HW division was full of Cruiserweights, they just didn't have that division back then and they also didn't have any quality big men, even Joe Louis and Max Baer barely weighed over 205 lbs for a lot of their career, today that's a tiny water cut away from CW.

I will say this for Rocky though ........ I'm not sure I'd even give him much of a hope against today's Cruiser Weights.
Gassiev, Usyek, Holyfield, prime Haye, James Toney, hmmm nope.

If you look at his walk in weight Rocky was really a water cut away from Light Heavy weight, but tbf that just shows how tough he was fighting bigger guys and never losing.

rocky was smaller than most ufc welterweights.

 

[TownBiz]

It's always been an interesting coincidence to me how Cus ended up training two world champs in Patterson and Tyson whom both were amazing fighters that were heavily hampered by their mental issues. From what I've read on Patterson it sounded like he dealt with some serious anxiety issues.

i wouldn't be surprised...both floyd and tyson had very troubled childhoods...they just seemed to have different ways of dealing with it...i'm sure it had a lot to do with the environment they were in too.

 

[TownBiz]

marciano had a 68" reach and weighed 186lb and he was the heavy weight champion of the world. he was a 100X the fighter wilder ever will be. you boy only wins because of his physical advantages. do you box? or are you just a know it all. have you seen ezzard's second fight against marciano? marciano absolutely demolished him, despite charles landing his best punch repeatedly. are you stupid? how do you think the bloke got where he did if he had no skill?

once again, guy....i'll say it ONE MORE TIME..ezzard charles was an over the hill LIGHT HEAVY WEIGHT!...he's NOT SUPPOSED to bother a young, strong hw with hhis power. STILL he beat rocky in the first fight.

And yes, physical advantages count for a lot in a fight....that's why marciano wth his youth was able to beat old joe louis and older joe walcott...its also why he was able to beat SMALLER guys like archie moore and ezzard charles who were both considered old at the time...nobody enjoyed physical advantages over his opponents more than marciano.

 

[eternaldarkness]

once again, guy....i'll say it ONE MORE TIME..ezzard charles was an over the hill LIGHT HEAVY WEIGHT!...he's NOT SUPPOSED to bother a young, strong hw with hhis power. STILL he beat rocky in the first fight.

And yes, physical advantages count for a lot in a fight....that's why marciano wth his youth was able to beat old joe louis and older joe walcott...its also why he was able to beat SMALLER guys like archie moore and ezzard charles who were both considered old at the time...nobody enjoyed physical advantages over his opponents more than marciano.

68' reach and 186lb sounds like a lot of physical advantages. even charles was heavier when they fought. and calling him over the hill shows how little knowledge you have. watch the fight, he certainly didn't look like a shot fighter when he split marciano's nose in two. and i highly recommend his fight against moore. it is one of the best fights i have ever seen. (moore also weighed the same as marciano). have you seen ezzard's first fight against rocky? i didn't know it was available and would love to watch it.

 

[Jhonni5]

i wouldn't be surprised...both floyd and tyson had very troubled childhoods...they just seemed to have different ways of dealing with it...i'm sure it had a lot to do with the environment they were in too.

Oh absolutely, especially with Tyson. He had quite the rough childhood/early adolescence prior to living with Cus from what I understand.

 

[mozfonky]

floyd has a strange legacy, he was very popular in his time but he's nearly forgotten about now. sportswriters like Cosell used to love him but a lot of guys in the media seemed to turn on him. maybe that too eager to please attitude turned them off, patterson was not averse to kissing ass.

 

[TownBiz]

68' reach and 186lb sounds like a lot of physical advantages. even charles was heavier when they fought. and calling him over the hill shows how little knowledge you have. watch the fight, he certainly didn't look like a shot fighter when he split marciano's nose in two. and i highly recommend his fight against moore. it is one of the best fights i have ever seen. (moore also weighed the same as marciano). have you seen ezzard's first fight against rocky? i didn't know it was available and would love to watch it.

i saw marciano-charles I a few years back when the full fight was available on youtube...charles won the early rounds, outboxing rocky with ease and rocky came back strong toward the end...i scored it for charles...my grand uncle who was around back when the fight actually happened said the consensus opinion back then was that charles won .

like i said, charles didn't think too much of marciano...he busted rocky's nose in the second fight because marciano's face was an easy target, but he was past his prime and, down the stretch, not able to handle rocky's power at hw..is not the first time charles had been ko'd though...didnt bivins and walcott also ko himj prior to marciano?

 

[eternaldarkness]

i saw marciano-charles I a few years back when the full fight was available on youtube...charles won the early rounds, outboxing rocky with ease and rocky came back strong toward the end...i scored it for charles...my grand uncle who was around back when the fight actually happened said the consensus opinion back then was that charles won .

like i said, charles didn't think too much of marciano...he busted rocky's nose in the second fight because marciano's face was an easy target, but he was past his prime and, down the stretch, not able to handle rocky's power at hw..is not the first time charles had been ko'd though...didnt bivins and walcott also ko himj prior to marciano?

just pointing out the marciano was the same size or smaller than the lhw's he was beating. he did have the advantage of youth like you say though.

 

[TownBiz]

floyd has a strange legacy, he was very popular in his time but he's nearly forgotten about now. sportswriters like Cosell used to love him but a lot of guys in the media seemed to turn on him. maybe that too eager to please attitude turned them off, patterson was not averse to kissing ass.

from what i understand, a big part of patterson's decline in popularity was due to how he criticized ali when ali converted to islam, changed his name and became an anti-vietnam war activist and civil rights figure. In ali's bio he talks about how patterson refused to call ali by his muslim name...patterson said something about ali should be called by his "beautiful christian name" or something and that patterson wouldn't recognize the name change...that's the reason ali taunted patterson during their fight, repeatedly telling him "say my name!" ali called him an uncle tom and it stuck...people remember patterson for that more than his boxing career, which by the way, wasn't that memorable.

 

[TownBiz]

Oh absolutely, especially with Tyson. He had quite the rough childhood/early adolescence prior to living with Cus from what I understand.

tyson was practically an abandoned kid living in brownsville brooklyn...i lived in brownsville years ago and it's a hard place, especially for a child...tyson fell in with bad crowds...he was big for his age and getting into fights with grown men when he was still a child.

that's where a lot of his anger isssues come from.

 

[pookiyama]

I'd expect 9/10 people to pick Rocky based on what's on paper, but I think that massive speed advantage, Patterson having a reach advantage, and Rocky being hurt by inferior power punchers would all lend to Floyd catching him early and often and fucking him up from the jump

 

[TownBiz]

I'd expect 9/10 people to pick Rocky based on what's on paper, but I think that massive speed advantage, Patterson having a reach advantage, and Rocky being hurt by inferior power punchers would all lend to Floyd catching him early and often and fucking him up from the jump

finally, somebody who gets it...especially the part about 9/10 guys who dksab picking rocky.

 

[Boxer]

from what i understand, a big part of patterson's decline in popularity was due to how he criticized ali when ali converted to islam, changed his name and became an anti-vietnam war activist and civil rights figure. In ali's bio he talks about how patterson refused to call ali by his muslim name...patterson said something about ali should be called by his "beautiful christian name" or something and that patterson wouldn't recognize the name change...that's the reason ali taunted patterson during their fight, repeatedly telling him "say my name!" ali called him an uncle tom and it stuck...people remember patterson for that more than his boxing career, which by the way, wasn't that memorable.

Haven't you got that wrong?

It was Ernie Terrell who Ali shouted that "Say my name" at?

I know he called Patterson an Uncle Tom but he also said that to Frazier, Ali respected Patterson and quite liked him, similar to Frazier though he still taunted him but in a more joke way ........ when he shouted "say my name" at Terrell, Ali was not joking, he was very p*ssed.

 

[TownBiz]

Haven't you got that wrong?

It was Ernie Terrell who Ali shouted that "Say my name" at?

I know he called Patterson an Uncle Tom but he also said that to Frazier, Ali respected Patterson and quite liked him, similar to Frazier though he still taunted him but in a more joke way ........ when he shouted "say my name" at Terrell, Ali was not joking, he was very p*ssed.

ok, it was terrell ali told "say my name..." he mocked and humiliated patterson.

from https://www.espn.com/sportscentury/features/00242468.html

"Before his Nov. 22, 1965 fight with Floyd Patterson, Ali called the former heavyweight champ an "Uncle Tom." He was angry that Patterson refused to call him Muhammad Ali, but continued to call him Clay. Instead of scoring a quick KO, Ali mocked, humiliated and punished Patterson throughout before knocking him out in the 12th round."

 

[mozfonky]

from what i understand, a big part of patterson's decline in popularity was due to how he criticized ali when ali converted to islam, changed his name and became an anti-vietnam war activist and civil rights figure. In ali's bio he talks about how patterson refused to call ali by his muslim name...patterson said something about ali should be called by his "beautiful christian name" or something and that patterson wouldn't recognize the name change...that's the reason ali taunted patterson during their fight, repeatedly telling him "say my name!" ali called him an uncle tom and it stuck...people remember patterson for that more than his boxing career, which by the way, wasn't that memorable.

the black folks might not have liked that but white america, the people Patterson was trying to please, they loved what he said, and Patterson knew that. Patterson was smart, there was a book a few years ago juxtaposing the very different men Patterson/Liston/Ali were. Liston was the old type of black guy, Patterson the current more conservative and Ali was the coming future black athlete. Patterson was a kiss ass and someone like Howard Cosell saw through it and called him on it. But Patterson was a very popular fighter in his time, very, so much so that we don't even understand that today because his legacy wasn't one that lasts, history has not been kind to the kind of phony he was.

 

[mozfonky]

Haven't you got that wrong?

It was Ernie Terrell who Ali shouted that "Say my name" at?

I know he called Patterson an Uncle Tom but he also said that to Frazier, Ali respected Patterson and quite liked him, similar to Frazier though he still taunted him but in a more joke way ........ when he shouted "say my name" at Terrell, Ali was not joking, he was very p*ssed.

most people think/say he tortured patterson too for not calling him clay and saying he was "going to bring the title back to america". Ali told Cosell that he laid off Patterson because he didn't want to hurt him. I've seen both opinions, the fight itself is hard to read, it looks like ali never went in for the kill, the only question is why. Some said Floyd was his old idol (true) and some have said he just wanted the punishment to last for "the way he was talking about my religion" (ali's words to Cus D'amato). In the rematch years later, Ali was very kind pre-fight to floyd, wanted to help him with his tax issues with a fight and again seemed to have his foot on the brake until about the 5th or sixth round when he poured it on and had it stopped. Whatever we say today, Ali always had great respect for Floyd as a fighter.

 

[mozfonky]

here is some footage, nauseating to me but some of you probably love what Patterson says:

 

[Bamboozled]

Rocky gets KO'ed its not even funny.

I'm about an inch taller than Rocky, inch and half in the morning and a little heavier by about half a stone.

One of my worst sparring matches came against an almost identical match up, Me at 14st vs a 6'ft 18st HW and i usually beat HW's.

After the spar I was like "stick your arm out a minute" and we measure reach, his fkin reach was way more than mine (72") and I could see why I was having a hard time getting inside.

When someone is taller even when they have a reach, you can get up and under and they have to punch down but when that HW is your height their punches are straight and it causes more problems.

His jabs were like logs flying at my head and because there's so much weight behind them you can't just block them normally, you have to get the hell out of the way making it more effort even to just defend.

I've always looked at the Patterson (another similar sized fighter) vs Liston as to why this particular stat match up gave me a harder time.

............. I imagine Rocky is going to face similar issues, Liston in 3rds

Lol your experience vs two ATGs.