Fmr CIA director US "probably" meddles in other countrie's elections, but for a good cause

[MicroBrew]

You admit our sins of the past, but not Russia's? That's not a fair argument. Let's keep it current or we can start talking about the Iron Curtain, which won't get us anywhere. I won't deny the horrible shit we've done, no worries.

Right now, who is the bad actor in the world? Who is supporting Assad's war on his own people, and who is willing to slap him for it? We're certainly not conquering territory, unlike somebody I could mention. Their campaign against all of western democracy is pretty staggering too.

The Cold War is not the distant past like Colonialism, it is within our lifetime. I am not lauding the Russians as good, just stating that the US isn't necessarily good either.

Assad is also ensuring the safety of the minorities, while American allies were supporting forces that wanted to genocide the minorities. The US was supporting the rebels, who were mostly made up of Sunni sectarian groups like Al Qaeda. AQ is bad when it attacks the US, but when it attacks the Russians and Assad, then it is good, Just typical US hypocrisy.

Russians aren't conquering territory either. Crimea is Russian. The people wanted to join Russia, because they are overwhelmingly Russian and were part of Russia as recently as the 60s.

 

[Fawlty]

Now you're deflecting, bud. I didn't say they were the good guys, but that doesn't mean that we are. What right do we have to meddle in Ukrainian elections?

We have a right to protect them from Russian meddling. Again, we're justified by Putin's territorial conquests, no matter whether we excuse stealing Crimea and invading parts of Ukraine (which for some reason you don't seem to recognize??).

 

[Alphafail]

This thread title is hilarious. The fact that there are people here trying to justify the government 'probably' meddling with other countries' elections for a good cause is pretty depressive though.

 

[Fawlty]

The Cold War is not the distant past like Colonialism, it is within our lifetime. I am not lauding the Russians as good, just stating that the US isn't necessarily good either.

Assad is also ensuring the safety of the minorities, while American allies were supporting forces that wanted to genocide the minorities. The US was supporting the rebels, who were mostly made up of Sunni sectarian groups like Al Qaeda. AQ is bad when it attacks the US, but when it attacks the Russians and Assad, then it is good, Just typical US hypocrisy.

Russians aren't conquering territory either. Crimea is Russian. The people wanted to join Russia, because they are overwhelmingly Russian and were part of Russia as recently as the 60s.

Wow, do we ever have a different view of what's happening in the world. We can leave it there I guess. Let's see in a couple more years who was justified for what they did. I will stick by the US being the better actor here, by a lot.

 

[HomerThompson]

We have a right to protect them from Russian meddling. Again, we're justified by Putin's territorial conquests, no matter whether we excuse stealing Crimea and invading parts of Ukraine (which for some reason you don't seem to recognize??).

We have a right to interfere in another countries elections, because someone else we don't like might also be doing it? That's horse shit. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[EZShrimpn]

We have a right to protect them from Russian meddling. Again, we're justified by Putin's territorial conquests, no matter whether we excuse stealing Crimea and invading parts of Ukraine (which for some reason you don't seem to recognize??).

This is like saying that Croats were "Stealing" Croatia from Yugoslavia.

 

[Fawlty]

We have a right to interfere in another countries elections, because someone else we don't like might also be doing it? That's horse shit. Two wrongs don't make a right.

The worst you can say about it is that we're equally "bad." That's the worst plausible case, that it's a wash. And that tie is broken in an instant by the possible futures of the two systems of government; puppetry or democracy. I'm okay with invoking a little American Exceptionalism in this case. Because look at the results.

 

[EZShrimpn]

The worst you can say about it is that we're equally "bad." That's the worst plausible case, that it's a wash. And that tie is broken in an instant by the possible futures of the two systems of government; puppetry or democracy. I'm okay with invoking a little American Exceptionalism in this case. Because look at the results.

The problem with this outlook is that it assumes a tabula rasa that can simply be painted over with the values of Americanism.

In reality the cultures of these countries persist. Because the people who live there hold them central to their identity. We can try and force it but it ends up working In the same way that a stress ball returns to it's shape once you're too tired of squeezing it into the shape of your fist.

We've been in Afghanistan for almost 18 years and I'm pretty sure there's still not a single lululemon, McDonalds, or REI in the entire country that isn't on a military base.

 

[HomerThompson]

The worst you can say about it is that we're equally "bad." That's the worst plausible case, that it's a wash. And that tie is broken in an instant by the possible futures of the two systems of government; puppetry or democracy. I'm okay with invoking a little American Exceptionalism in this case. Because look at the results.

Yeah, we have a great track record of supporting "Democracy" all over the world. You're being silly here. This thread is about US election interference abroad, and you're deflecting to Russia. That's Trump Bot level stuff, man.

 

[Fawlty]

Yeah, we have a great track record of supporting "Democracy" all over the world. You're being silly here. This thread is about US election interference abroad, and you're deflecting to Russia. That's Trump Bot level stuff, man.

I won't let you call it deflecting when I'm directly addressing the justification for "meddling," which is part of the premise of the thread. Mind your manners.

 

[spin]

the sheer stupidity of that "probably"

you are a former CIA director, out of all the people that would know it for a certainty, it would be you. and we know it.

 

[HomerThompson]

I won't let you call it deflecting when I'm directly addressing the justification for "meddling," which is part of the premise of the thread. Mind your manners.

There is no justification though. We were in the wrong. Just like we were wrong a million other times in the Cold War.

 

[Fawlty]

There is no justification though. We were in the wrong. Just like we were wrong a million other times in the Cold War.

I can't see that we're in the wrong at this moment. Surely we should be counter-meddling right now, at least throughout Europe.

 

[HomerThompson]

We should have never been meddling in the Ukraine to begin with. Just like we shouldn't have meddled in Nicaragua, El Salavador, Chile, Honduras, etc.

Was all that to stop the evil Ruskies too?

 

[HomerThompson]

I can't see that we're in the wrong at this moment. Surely we should be counter-meddling right now, at least throughout Europe.

Should Russia be meddling in Mexico and Canada?

 

[Fawlty]

We should have never been meddling in the Ukraine to begin with. Just like we shouldn't have meddled in Nicaragua, El Salavador, Chile, Honduras, etc.

Was all that to stop the evil Ruskies too?

I won't defend that stuff. We're on the same page with the hemispheric fuckery.

 

[Fawlty]

Should Russia be meddling in Mexico and Canada?

No.

In the case of Mexico, I think we should meddle by backing officials who are not bought off by the cartels.

 

[HomerThompson]

No.

In the case of Mexico, I think we should meddle by backing officials who are not bought off by the cartels.

Ok. So why should we meddle in Europe then?

Note: I'm not talking about intel sharing with allies here.

 

[MicroBrew]

I can't see that we're in the wrong at this moment. Surely we should be counter-meddling right now, at least throughout Europe.

The US+Israel supports the current rightwing Guatemalan government. So our meddling in latin American politics never ceased. We are always backing rightwing government, to the detriment of indigenous and poor people.

 

[Fawlty]

Ok. So why should we meddle in Europe then?

Note: I'm not talking about intel sharing with allies here.

By identifying Russian interests and attacking them with propaganda and sanctions, and by supporting political operatives and officials who are opposing them.