Former U.S. Education Secretary: 'We're top 10 in nothing'

[JohnMc]

Got to love the disconnect here. The Left has the Education system on lockdown and they're complaining about the standards. Maybe if they taught something useful instead trying to make our boys think that they're really girls we might actually start getting into the top ranks.

 

[ultramanhyata]

Today, knowledge is literally at our fingertips at every second of the day. The Internet and public libraries are free resources of knowledge. Available knowledge is not the problem.

Nothing gets one noticed on a resume quite like stating the hundreds of hours one has spent online and in libraries studying the specific subjects that pertain to the position being applied for.

Companies will see you as a motivated self-starter who bypassed institutions of higher learning and move you to the front of the line.

 

[Konquest]

theres a famous analogy related to why education cannot be run like a business. ive mentioned it in here before, so hopefully im not beating a dead horse. but if you have a pie company, and a distributor sends you rotten blueberries, you can send them back for a refund, or get them exchanged. public schools cannot do that. if a kid is being assaulted at home, or doesnt know where theyre going to sleep that night, teachers are still going to be held accountable for the test they take on that one day. then the teacher will often be blamed for their failure (though, some teachers deserve to be blamed).

but yea, many charter schools, by my estimation as well, are eliminating that blueberry problem. theyre picking and choosing which kids they take, and how many. in many cases, sucking public funds from the same schools that theyve jumped ship from. oddly enough, many states have fairly powerful charter lobbies. in those same states, one might almost think that legislators are attempting to sabotage their own state's public schools.

Not only that, but the primary funding sources for the charter lobbies are the Devos and Walton family foundations. Based on what we know about those two families, do we really think they are so heavily invested for altruistic reasons? Do we want education in the US to be heavily influenced, if not outright run, by the Walmart or Amway business models?

 

[panamaican]

And what did Arne Duncan do about that when he had the chance? He was education secretary for 8 years, the first two of which his president had a near supermajority in congress, but now that he is out we suddenly have a problem.

He talked about this repeatedly while he was in office. And the ESSA was what they implemented.

 

[panamaican]

Got to love the disconnect here. The Left has the Education system on lockdown and they're complaining about the standards. Maybe if they taught something useful instead trying to make our boys think that they're really girls we might actually start getting into the top ranks.

I truly hate how often stupid people try to reduce every subject down to their partisan position without a shred of information. I sincerely hope that none of you people are parents because attaching this much ignorance to a subject that directly affects your kids is sad.

Bush put out higher standards with No Child Left Behind. Parents and teachers rebelled. Obama put out the Every Student Succeeds Act. Parents and teachers complained. Every conversation doesn't require you to draw some imaginary partisan line in the sand.

 

[Pessimystic]

Nothing gets one noticed on a resume quite like stating the hundreds of hours one has spent online and in libraries studying the specific subjects that pertain to the position being applied for.

Companies will see you as a motivated self-starter who bypassed institutions of higher learning and move you to the front of the line.

Nobody is saying that the internet will supply a degree. School is still required (usually). What is being said is that there is a free tutor at your fingertips to help with difficulties. You can throw all the money in the world at it (your obvious "solution"), but it won't amount to jack shit if the student simply doesn't care enough to learn.
And I know personally several people that have taught themselves how to code, via books and internet. They do alright.

 

[Konquest]

He talked about this repeatedly while he was in office. And the ESSA was what they implemented.

Duncan was not a wonderful SecEd, and had some reductive viewpoints that did not go over well with teacher's unions and groups representing school boards and admin., but he was light years ahead of what we've got now, which is intentional sabotage of the DepEd and the public school system in general.

But it is pretty much garbage to say that he "had his chance to improve things", when they tried to develop some across-state lines educational standards broken down by subject and grade level (Common Core, which was well-intended but flawed), and the people said that it was going to indoctrinate their children into become gay, muslim, or gay muslim. I'm not making this up. Then there was the time that President Obama did a back to school address for the nation's children, encouraging effort and good attendance (a tradition I remember during my elementary years when Reagan was president), and schools all over the country opted not to show it because parents were concerned about hypnotism/mind control and subliminal messages. That actually happened, too.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

Got to love the disconnect here. The Left has the Education system on lockdown and they're complaining about the standards. Maybe if they taught something useful instead trying to make our boys think that they're really girls we might actually start getting into the top ranks.

"the left" has education on lockdown?
What does that even mean?
What classroom is teaching boys to be girls?
Lol Jesus, you people are so fucking stupid.

This has nothing to do with right vs left. We have had problems with our education system for decades, regardless of what party was in power

 

[panamaican]

Duncan was not a wonderful SecEd, and had some reductive viewpoints that did not go over well with teacher's unions and groups representing school boards and admin., but he was light years ahead of what we've got now, which is intentional sabotage of the DepEd and the public school system in general.

But it is pretty much garbage to say that he "had his chance to improve things", when they tried to develop some across-state lines educational standards broken down by subject and grade level (Common Core, which was well-intended but flawed), and the people said that it was going to indoctrinate their children into become gay, muslim, or gay muslim. I'm not making this up. Then there was the time that President Obama did a back to school address for the nation's children, encouraging effort and good attendance (a tradition I remember during my elementary years when Reagan was president), and schools all over the country opted not to show it because parents were concerned about hypnotism/mind control and subliminal messages. That actually happened, too.

I think that some of the criticism that Duncan laid at the feet of the parents was valid. And I agree that some of the backlash to new standards and such was completely out of touch with what was being asked.

I don't know if Duncan was a good Sec.Ed. or not but I think we can agree that it's untrue for anyone to claim that he or the hypothetical "left" didn't try to improve things.

My opinion on why things don't improve is what I said before plus some additional points. Some people refuse to improve overall education quality because they don't want inner city schools to reap a benefit. Additionally, some parents balk at higher standards because they don't want to face the possibility that the extra money they paid for a house to access the good school system was wasted. That the school is still woefully behind the international standard. They prefer the fiction that because their children are outperforming the kids whose schools don't even have enough textbooks that their children are at the top of the heap internationally too.

 

[Fugazy]

Hmmm....

Why didn't this 'ol chap work harder to fix that during Obamas terms?

Or is this just now a problem?

Either way, I firmly believe we as a nation need to change how we make education seem interesting and valuable to the young, and affordable to those gearing up for college/uni/trade school.

 

[Konquest]

I think that some of the criticism that Duncan laid at the feet of the parents was valid. And I agree that some of the backlash to new standards and such was completely out of touch with what was being asked.

I don't know if Duncan was a good Sec.Ed. or not but I think we can agree that it's untrue for anyone to claim that he or the hypothetical "left" didn't try to improve things.

My opinion on why things don't improve is what I said before plus some additional points. Some people refuse to improve overall education quality because they don't want inner city schools to reap a benefit. Additionally, some parents balk at higher standards because they don't want to face the possibility that the extra money they paid for a house to access the good school system was wasted. That the school is still woefully behind the international standard. They prefer the fiction that because their children are outperforming the kids whose schools don't even have enough textbooks that their children are at the top of the heap internationally too.

Regarding the part about "not wanting inner city schools to reap the benefit", that same attitude also applies to cuts and liabilities, LOL. Full disclosure: my wife and I are both teachers in Milwaukee right outside of the city in a diverse and relatively high-performing area that draws from suburban McMansions as well as housing projects, so it's been an interesting ride. I know exactly what you are saying here.

I had to laugh at some of the reactions a few years back when our governor, Scott Walker, made some massive cuts to general state aid for schools to balance a huge deficit he created through tax cuts. For a year or two, the increased contributions to benefits from public employees (aka "pay cut") were enough to offset the cuts, but by about year 3, even the well-off suburban school districts had to start cutting programs, raising fees, and laying people off to make ends meet in the austerity era. You should have seen the reactions from people in affluent suburbs, who just assumed (from a position of entitlement, privilege, and to a lesser extent, racism) that the 1.6 billion dollar cut was only going to affect the schools in the city where black and brown people live. The pearl clutching, confusion, and dismay was a sight to behold. They honestly thought they were in a safe little bubble where austerity measures would only affect "others".

Anyway, one of my issues with Duncan is he took a lot of undue credit for improving Chicago schools, when the reality was that he happened to be in charge when some of the biggest gentrification was taking place when entire poverty-stricken neighborhoods and giant housing projects were bulldozed, thus creating a diaspora of "low test scores" out of the city.

 

[superpunch]

Nothing gets one noticed on a resume quite like stating the hundreds of hours one has spent online and in libraries studying the specific subjects that pertain to the position being applied for.

Companies will see you as a motivated self-starter who bypassed institutions of higher learning and move you to the front of the line.

If you have specific projects you can show, that does work.

EG -- study programming online and contribute to some open source projects. Now your resume will be noticed.

If you can prove that you really did go to the library and study stuff with real world projects and examples of work, that works quite more often that you'd think. It's just rare that people actually try it.

 

[JJSBUR]

Education here in terms of accessibility/quality ratio - where the ability to take out a monolithic loan is not considered "accessibility" - is absolute shit. If I end up having any kids, they'll be schooled in Europe - cheaper, equal or better quality, less likely to get shot.

I went to my early years in school on a scholarship, however the vast majority of it was while working full time. Working and going to school can be done.

 

[Darth_Inv1ctu5]

I went to my early years in school on a scholarship, however the vast majority of it was while working full time. Working and going to school can be done.

It sure can, I did it too. It should not have to be necessary though. And here it's pretty much necessary unless you're riding a scholarship of some sort - if you don't want to start off with tens of thousands of dollars in a hole after graduation. That - that's bullshit.

 

[JJSBUR]

It sure can, I did it too. It should not have to be necessary though. And here it's pretty much necessary unless you're riding a scholarship of some sort - if you don't want to start off with tens of thousands of dollars in a hole after graduation. That - that's bullshit.

You don't have to be in a hole after graduation, work your way through college and you will not be in a hole.

 

[Darth_Inv1ctu5]

You don't have to be in a hole after graduation, work your way through college and you will not be in a hole.

You're missing the point - entering the workforce debt-free should not necessitate working during college. It simply should not, it's nonsense.

 

[JJSBUR]

You're missing the point - entering the workforce debt-free should not necessitate working during college. It simply should not, it's nonsense.

Other people should pay for it then? You are an adult by the time you get to college.

The word should is indicating a normative statement. Before using the word should the impact needs to be studied first.

 

[WandySaku2]

You're missing the point - entering the workforce debt-free should not necessitate working during college. It simply should not, it's nonsense.

Other people should pay for it then? You are an adult by the time you get to college.

The word should is indicating a normative statement. Before using the word should the impact needs to be studied first.

We should cover anything STEM. Everything else, you're on your own.

 

[Darth_Inv1ctu5]

Other people should pay for it then? You are an adult by the time you get to college.

The word should is indicating a normative statement. Before using the word should the impact needs to be studied first.

a) Impact on what? General welfare?
b) The impact is determined by whom exactly?

How are other countries (UK, Germany etc.) able to keep their education costs down and still offer high quality education, irrespective of the area of study and without any public outcry?

Yeah, you are an adult by the time you get to college but literally nowhere else in the world does that entail working just to pay for school or racking up 10s or 100s of K worth of debt. It's a bullshit notion that that's what's necessary. Observe Cambridge tuition costs, of all places, and it crushes 95% of US schools

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/fees-and-finance/tuition-fees

Fucking £9k for domestic students for Engineering. Get the fuck out with defending the tuition rates in the US - it's a highway robbery of the most absurd proportions.

 

[JJSBUR]

a) Impact on what? General welfare?
b) The impact is determined by whom exactly?

How are other countries (UK, Germany etc.) able to keep their education costs down and still offer high quality education, irrespective of the area of study and without any public outcry?

Yeah, you are an adult by the time you get to college but literally nowhere else in the world does that entail working just to pay for school or racking up 10s or 100s of K worth of debt. It's a bullshit notion that that's what's necessary. Observe Cambridge tuition costs, of all places, and it crushes 95% of US schools

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/fees-and-finance/tuition-fees

Fucking £9k for domestic students for Engineering. Get the fuck out with defending the tuition rates in the US - it's a highway robbery of the most absurd proportions.

Have you ever done any government accounting?