Frank Mir confirms “unspoken rule among fighters” that tapping to strikes is “unacceptable” & “soft”

[The Don]

I guess the damage due to not tapping to a submission jumps much more abruptly from zero to 100. And due to that the chance of a ref saving you in time to keep you from passing out or a broken bone is very low whereas damage due to strikes adds up in a linear way.

That's a good way to look at it! Although, not reassuring to future mental health still.

 

[JackSchtotll]

Not a GOAT.

 

[JackSchtotll]

People sometimes get out of deeply sunk in chokes too - its why in Olympic level judo some guys refuse to tap. Like I said, we have kids in judo who get choked out and are back in action five minutes later. People used to line up to be choked out by Gene Lebell (and got a t-shirt for it). You have time to consider what you're doing when being choked out, its not the reflex you're talking about (at least not for any serious grappler). The way out of a sunk in choke is exactly the same principle of the way out of losing consciousness because of strikes - you need your opponent to screw up. Except the risks if your opponent doesn't screw up are much smaller with chokes than with strikes.

The whole idea of not tapping to strikes (or getting back on the ice five minutes after being knocked out in hockey) was based on the medical theory that it takes years of regular concussions to do any brain damage, so getting hit in the head when already concussed was not a big deal. We now know that is not true, and many fighters are educated enough to read the papers and realize that the same concussion issues in the NHL and NFL apply to MMA as well, and so that chokes and locks are less dangerous than head strikes, so the first thing to tap to is strikes, and the last thing to tap to is chokes.

Some guys like Mir still believe the old medical opinions they learned growing up; but lots of other one know better. Its as simple as that.

 

[Dreaming Dead]

Satsui no hado. Murderous intent right there.

I hate Forrest and I think he sucks, but I got to give him props for bracing himself through this without tapping.

Also, Mazzagatti seems to hate him too.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Okay, that was actually funny. I'm sure its an anomaly and you'll fall back to your usual standard, but that one was good.

 

[JackSchtotll]

He makes it obvious he’s a Anderson nuthugger

And you are a GSP nuthugger, Anderson hater and a troll.

So what?

Anderson >>>>>>>>>>>> GSP

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

My point was tapping to strikes makes the difference between "one punch or two" whereas tapping to, say, an armbar = "healthy arm or Nog arm".
I don't know what you consider "medically minor" but I broke my collarbone last August and I still can't scratch my back (admittedly non-grappling related accident).

That's a fair point, let me expand on what I meant.

If what you said about tapping to strikes making the difference between one punch or two, I'd agree with your position. However you don't have to watch much MMA to realize that with many refs it means the difference between one punch or ten; I can't imagine a professional athletes (or soldier) putting their career (you degrade your future ability to take a punch with every hit on a concussed brain) in the hands of someone who is quite often incompetent (though there are some refs who I'd trust).

Medically minor simply means life threatening. Sorry to hear about your collarbone, I can sympathize due to several breaks over my lifetime - but compared to brain swelling/death or even lifelong CTE symptoms these things are minor. As I said, its why national medical associations want boxing and MMA banned but not judo or BJJ - they just don't consider breaks to be that important in the big scheme of things.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Again like somebody else mentioned it

Fighters know when a sub is too deep n it’s either: tap, nap or snap

Sometimes fighters get criticized for tapping too fast to chokes/locks, however for most part they are given the benefit of the doubt n ppl assume the sub was deep n they couldn’t escape

With strikes a fighter can still move around n improve his position, so if he was able to tap, he was able to do something else.

That's the theory, but in practice when you feel yourself losing consciousness from a head strike (again, I speak from the experience of putting my head through a windshield in an auto accident) you have no more ability to move around or do anything in than you with a choke. For one thing, you lose the sense of where your body parts are, let alone moving them (proprioception); the tapping happens because its a reflex, its not a well thought out thing.

You're talking about cases where someone taps to strikes while still fully conscious and in complete control of their limbs; I doubt that occurs often in MMA. Its the same as someone tapping to a choke or lock long before its sunk in. Tapping to strikes occurs when consciousness and body control is fading away; its almost exactly the same feeling as the last few seconds before passing out from a choke.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Gotta love these opinionated hipsters...

You do realize that ppl were aware of head related issues regarding combat sports as early as 50s, maybe even before that.

The term “punch drunk” was designated for those boxers who had one too many blows to the head.

Everybody knew getting repeatedly hit in the head is not good for you n Muhamed ali was the prime example of that.

Now if you choose to become boxer/fighter you gotta expect a possibility of head related issues later on.

It’s like becoming police officer not expecting to use your gun or firefighter not expecting to put out fires.

As of now there’s no way of knowing when brain/head issues will occur.

Getting brutally ko n then your opponent delivering a flying hammerfist (perfectly legal) “for good measures” is probably not the best thing for your brain/head, but fighters still choose to get in the cage knowing what potentially can happen in there.

So if you’re too concern with cte or brain issues, maybe a fighting career isn’t for you

The same argument can (and historically has) been used against tapping to chokes and locks. Old school judo instructors thought tapping to chokes even in practice, and to locks in competition was unmanly. If being choked out or having a broken arm is a concern, maybe you shouldn't be doing judo was their motto.

And it applies just as well to MMA. And since the consequences of being choked out or having a broken arm are so much less severe than from CTE's there's an even stronger case for saying:

If you're too concerned with being choked out or having a broken limb, maybe a fighting career isn't for you either. If tapping is wrong, its always wrong. Cherry picking striking (which ironically is the m most dangerous) as the only one its wrong to tap to is simply medical nonsense.

And actually I'm old enough to have been coached in the 60's, and the consensus was that you didn't get punch drunk from one or even ten concussions, but from hundreds of them. Which is why kids would be knocked out cold in hockey or football, rest for five minutes, and then be put back in play. Its simply a historical fact that that was the norm.

 

[Nightgunner05]

There is no way out of some submissions, there is almost always a way out of strikes without quitting. let the ref do their job.

That is legit one of the stupidest things I've read on Sherdog. Yes, I'm sure there are a lot of ways out from someone sitting on top of you when you're rocked, and getting your skull caved in. Not to mentioned the hundreds of times refs have let fights go on longer than they needed to even though the fighter was out.

It never fails to surprise me how many people think cage fighters are weak for tapping to strikes.

 

[Deleted member 220895]

If it's unspoken then no one really knows if it's unacceptable, and since it's unspoken, no one can confirm it. I'm thinking this is just Mir's perspective based on his personal opinion and people not communicating. Unspoken rules are passive aggressive bullshit, that most likely,are only held by a small few.

 

[tasticles]

That is legit one of the stupidest things I've read on Sherdog. Yes, I'm sure there are a lot of ways out from someone sitting on top of you when you're rocked, and getting your skull caved in. Not to mentioned the hundreds of times refs have let fights go on longer than they needed to even though the fighter was out.

It never fails to surprise me how many people think cage fighters are weak for tapping to strikes.

You are lacking the warrior spirit grasshopper. The fight must go on

 

[fartamis1982]

His point is too weak. He says tapping to a choke is okay, but all you are doing is going to sleep, and he gave Holly Holm props. That should mean that tapping to strikes as just as soft as tapping to a choke.

Nothing is happening to you with a choke. You go to sleep for a few seconds with less pain than being beaten to bloody pulp.

Tapping to a choke is more cowardly than tapping to strikes. Because strikes are significantly more dangerous than a choke. You will have to burn your arms out to kill a person with a choke. One lethally placed strike and you may never wake up again.

How many people have been killed playing BJJ? LOL

you can get brain damage or die from a choke.

 

[sb413197]

I don't agree with him. If you're done for, nothing wrong with tapping - regardless of whether it is a sub or strikes. If anything, tapping due to a CHOKE seems the odder thing in MMA - I mean they're in there kicking each other in the head, might as well fight the choke until you go out if you're already in a MMA fight?

 

[TAK47]

That's a fair point, let me expand on what I meant.

If what you said about tapping to strikes making the difference between one punch or two, I'd agree with your position. However you don't have to watch much MMA to realize that with many refs it means the difference between one punch or ten; I can't imagine a professional athletes (or soldier) putting their career (you degrade your future ability to take a punch with every hit on a concussed brain) in the hands of someone who is quite often incompetent (though there are some refs who I'd trust).

Medically minor simply means life threatening. Sorry to hear about your collarbone, I can sympathize due to several breaks over my lifetime - but compared to brain swelling/death or even lifelong CTE symptoms these things are minor. As I said, its why national medical associations want boxing and MMA banned but not judo or BJJ - they just don't consider breaks to be that important in the big scheme of things.

I agree with that sentiment, in the long run accumulated strikes to the head will be more detrimental to your overall health.
This doesnt necessarily mean it is perceived as such, i.e.
"You're a fighter, if you cant take a punch to the face, youre in the wrong profession"
vs
"Of course he tapped, there was no way out and he would have been sidelined for half a year, just for "honor" lol"

 

[beginetienne]

Some people just don't care about what others think and tap. That's the end of it. It's like crying out of exhaustion. You're tired and feel like cyring, just let it go.

If you are fair-play, competitive, successful, I feel like none of this stuff Mir talks about matters.

 

[HaulParris]

i'm not a fighter so I'm in no position to judge what internal values they've agreed upon as a fraternity. it's interesting though. tapping from a choke, which is relatively harmless is not soft, but tapping to getting your brain rattled in soft. must be something that's held over from boxing

valuing your limbs over your brain. not sure if that's a good thing.

I agree.

 

[crysis]

mir's an idiot plain and simple.

ofcourse its acceptable to tap to strikes, ffs if your getting your @ss beat and you know your not going to recover why take more damage for nothing or make things worse.

Ya it makes so much more sense just to lay there and say i'm gonna let my opponent keep hitting me even though i know i've already lost until i'm out cold or got brain damage, or broken nose or jaw when you could've tapped before getting beat up worse.

I think in a submission you tap to prevent snapping a limb it makes sense, i would imagine bending your arm back until it snaps and just allowing it to happen isn't the brighest thing to do....but i guess in Mir's opinion if you tap your a wimp.

funny how lots of people bring up the gsp/serra fight but what all the morons on here always forget to admit is that gsp took a sh!t ton of punches from serra, first off he was initially hit in the back of the head and then the side which rocked his equalibriam but he still came forward, made the effort to keep fighting and took lots of punches, until he was on his back taking more and tapped....gsp was never out cold or ko'd, obviously not or he wouldn't of tapped on his own conscious, he knew he was beat and not going to recover so why take more damage for no reason.

each has there own opinion but when your fighting combat sports its not fight to the death, its suppose to be a sport with rules, regulations and fighters need to be able to protect themselves or at least have the option too like tapping. I think Mir's head is stuck in the game 20 plus years ago when it was more barbaric and no rules and more vicious fighting, its a sport now and a fighters health and safety should always be first, if you tap to prevent any unnecessary damage i would say that is very acceptable.

When cain started tagging brock and brock back peddled and ran away, Mir should be saying that is unacceptable or soft but not tapping to strikes or a submission when you know you've been beat and not going to recover or come back.

 

[CPH]

What is confirmed is that Mir is not particularly smart.

 

[bully4me]

So it’s settled, GSP and Joanna are soft

Yup ,that both suck! What the hell have they eve done ?