Free Speech - is this what you are defending?

Bald1 said:
Fair enough (said begrudgingly), yet I think the ratio of denouncers to supporters aren't the same for each group. Ho many white folks do you know who support racist actions, or would willingly sit idle while knowing a Dyllan Roof is plotting in their midst? If you know any please dox those bastards.
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Not any but what's your point? Do you think I know Muslims who would do that with an Islamic terrorist or something?
 
Kafir-kun said:
Not any but what's your point? Do you think I know Muslims who would do that with an Islamic terrorist or something?
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Lol. A wee bit touchy today?

No, I don't think you know any terrorists, just as I don't think you know any future Dyllan Roofs. And the same goes for me. Then again neither one of us runs with fringe groups.

Yet my statement stands that the ratios aren't comparable between the two groups.
 
Kafir-kun said:
Doesn't really seem that odd to me, people call for Muslims to work to end terrorism all the time following terrorist attacks. Makes perfect sense to apply the same standard to a different group right?
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False equivalence imo. It's a deliberate decision to be a Muslim, it's not a deliberate decision to be white.
A Muslim deliberately subscribes to an ideology, Islam, which many see as violent, at least problematic.
The equivalence would be to urge ethnonationalists to condemn violence, not white people.
 
helltoupee said:
Aviatorshades and Worldofwarcraft disagree with this.
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Well, sometimes it is

Michael-Jackson.jpg
 
Bald1 said:
Lol. A wee bit touchy today?
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The question just had a weird implication, that's not on me.
No, I don't think you know any terrorists, just as I don't think you know any future Dyllan Roofs. And the same goes for me. Then again neither one of us runs with fringe groups.
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Which is why I thought it odd that you asked if I knew any white supremacists personally.
Yet my statement stands that the ratios aren't comparable between the two groups.
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Stands on what though? Any actual evidence? Here's what American Muslims say about Islamic extremism in the US
PF_2017.06.26_muslimamericans-05-05.png

Look at that, basically equal to that of the general public.
lecter said:
False equivalence imo. It's a deliberate decision to be a Muslim, it's not a deliberate decision to be white.
A Muslim deliberately subscribes to an ideology, Islam, which many see as violent, at least problematic.
The equivalence would be to urge ethnonationalists to condemn violence, not white people.
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That's a fair distinction setting aside for a minute the fact that for a lot of people they don't choose their religion as much as they're born into it. But its still a set of beliefs you can choose to hold or not.
 
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Kafir-kun said:
That's a fair distinction setting aside for a minute the fact that for a lot of people they don't choose their religion as much as they're born into it. But its still a set of beliefs you can choose to hold or not.
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I accept that when we talk about people who live in a society that outlawed and now punishes apostasy and people up to, idk, maybe 14 y/o or something.
An adult can't excuse something as significant as his worldview with what his parents told him. And again, even in that case, a better comparison would be a neo-nazi who was indoctrinated by his fascist parents, not simply a person with white skin.
 
lecter said:
I accept that when we talk about people who live in a society that outlawed and now punishes apostasy and people up to, idk, maybe 14 y/o or something.
An adult can't excuse something as significant as his worldview with what his parents told him.
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I don't think its as simple as those two poles, there's a gradient in between. Even if you don't face execution by the state or a mob, social stigmatization from one's social support group is enough to keep some people in line. And this is not something many choose, they're born into that world.

And the earlier point that I was responding to was that singling out groups only leads to strengthening extremist trends within those groups. If that's true of white people then I don't see how it wouldn't be true of Muslims since the dynamics at play don't hinge on whether its religion or race but simply being targeted for membership to a group.
 
Kafir-kun said:
Doesn't really seem that odd to me, people call for Muslims to work to end terrorism all the time following terrorist attacks. Makes perfect sense to apply the same standard to a different group right?
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It's racist to assume that specifically white people need to work on racism...
 
Kafir-kun said:
Why when the attack in question was done by a white supremacist?
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For starters, CBC has been singing this tune long before Charlottesville, as has the entire MSM and academia. But even still, what does one white guy killing a white woman have to do with white people as a whole? It's a racist sentiment no matter how you cut it, as it's based on the premise that we can group all white people into the same category. At the very least if we were consistent and could level the same accusation to all races it would be one thing, but if the same political pundit were to say the black people should work harder to stop racism, he wouldn't have a job.

Racism is not a "white person problem", that white people need to work harder at resolving, that's blatantly racist, and it's this type of implication that makes white people angry and resentful, and yes, racist.
 
dontsnitch said:
For starters, CBC has been singing this tune long before Charlottesville, as has the entire MSM and academia. But even still, what does one white guy killing a white woman have to do with white people as a whole? It's a racist sentiment no matter how you cut it, as it's based on the premise that we can group all white people into the same category. At the very least if we were consistent and could level the same accusation to all races it would be one thing, but if the same political pundit were to say the black people should work harder to stop racism, he wouldn't have a job.
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The one white guy killing that women has to do with white supremacy which is something that tends to be espoused by white people if you haven't noticed.
Racism is not a "white person problem", where white people need to work harder at resolving, that's blatantly racist, and it's this type of implication that makes white people angry and resentful, and yes, racist.
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Historically racism in America has been a white person problem, that's basically a fact. Obviously things have gotten much better but overtly institutional racism by whites against blacks is still within living memory and that makes a difference whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
 
Kafir-kun said:
Historically racism in America has been a white person problem, that's basically a fact. Obviously things have gotten much better but overtly institutional racism by whites against blacks is still within living memory and that makes a difference whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
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Why doesn't that still apply to other groups that were prejudiced against like the Irish or Italians?
 
jrams said:
Why doesn't that still apply to other groups that were prejudiced against like the Irish or Italians?
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Because the extent of anti-black racism was far worse, specifically in that it was endorsed by the government at various levels. Italians and Irishmen faced racism from individual Americans mostly and never faced the kind of institutional racism blacks did at the hands of the US government.
 
Kafir-kun said:
The one white guy killing that women has to do with white supremacy which is something that tends to be espoused by white people if you haven't noticed.
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White supremacy tells you to kill white people?
 
Kafir-kun said:
The one white guy killing that women has to do with white supremacy which is something that tends to be espoused by white people if you haven't noticed.

Historically racism in America has been a white person problem, that's basically a fact. Obviously things have gotten much better but overtly institutional racism by whites against blacks is still within living memory and that makes a difference whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
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What one white guy does has zero relevance to other white people, just as what one black guy does has no relevance to other black people. We are individuals. Racism is an individual act and it makes no sense, except in the view of identity politics, to put this on anyone else but the racist person. To suggest that racism is something only one race should work on is racist, but it's also nonsensical. It doesn't help.
 
dontsnitch said:
What one white guy does has zero relevance to other white people, just as what one black guy does has no relevance to other black people. We are individuals. Racism is an individual act and it makes no sense, except in the view of identity politics, to put this on anyone else but the racist person. To suggest that racism is something only one race should work on is racist, but it's also nonsensical. It doesn't help.
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So you're just going to ignore my point about the relevance of history here?
 
Kafir-kun said:
Because the extent of anti-black racism was far worse, specifically in that it was endorsed by the government at various levels. Italians and Irishmen faced racism from individual Americans mostly and never faced the kind of institutional racism blacks did at the hands of the US government.
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Ah, some racism gains you more victim points than others huh? So, where do American Indians rate on the victim scale? Early 18th century Italians or Irish? What about early 17th, 18th and 19th century Chinese? What Muslims today?

More importantly, does being the victim of racism then validate developing racists tendencies of ones own? Does it make racist rhetoric less offence when espoused by someones who has themselves been the victim of racism. What about violence, does being the recipient of racist violence validate enacting racist violence on others?
 
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