Garry Tonon fought again yesterday in MMA

I’m no striker, but looked to me like he was experimenting with some new tools here with his striking. I think the first 5 fights or so he’ll be trying g new techs and strategies, trying to work out what exactly works for him, before zones in on what exactly his ideal style is.

As for the grappling, I agree,he lost position too easy.
Danaher was playing it off like it was s strategy to do ‘cumulative damage’ and that the heel hooks in the beginning led to the RNC at the end. I’m dubious about that tho.
Don’t think the Indian lad had much ill effects from those sub attempts.

Be interesting to see if Garry changes his grappling approach and starts to use a more Damian Maia style conservative position game, or just keeps flat out jumping on subs

The problem with having a sub heavy game in MMA is that subs *don't* do significant damage if they fail. That's why submission oriented fighters tend to be pretty inconsistent, whereas positionally sound grapplers who never lose top once they get it tend to win more consistently. That's not to say you can't go for subs, but you do it from a dominant position that you don't have to forfeit for the attack. Hence Demian Maia was very consistent, but he didn't jump on subs. He passed, stayed on top, took the back, and then attacked the RNC until he got it without every giving up position.
 
I enjoy sub only as competition but agree %100 percent on it not bring best for real fighting.

There's a school near me with some really good guys. The entire school is of the mindset that position doesn't matter if you can't submit them. They will let you get mount or back and just tuck their arms so you can't sub them.

Again there are some badass dudes there and very good sub only competitors. However, when they try to represent it as more "street practical" than traditional bjj schools it honestly seems downright silly. When they are in their shell on the bottom hiding their arms and neck, there is a total disregard for strikes.

But more on topic of the thread I was a bit disappointed in his striking and his control. I was pretty optimistic about his striking after his first fight.

Personally I hate this trend in MMA of 'jump around a lot, you'll confuse the opponent and be hard to hit'. There are like two guys who do it well, Cruz and Dillashaw, and for both of them they're moving for pretty specific reasons in patterns they've practiced many, many times. It's not random. For most people, less movement is going to mean you're in position to defend and counterattack more often, and it'll improve your ability to take a shot. You'll also be able to string shots together effectively which is almost impossible if you're leaping in every time you try to land. If you want to see what happens when a guy with truly good footwork faces a guy with fancy, overly movement oriented footwork looking to dart in to attack, watch Aldo - Edgar 1. Aldo has some of the best footwork in MMA. He's never out of position to counter, or defend a takedown, and you have to force him to give up angles of attack (which so far only Holloway has been able to do). Edgar bounced around the edge and every time he'd leap in Aldo would calmly pivot a few inches offline and lace him with a counter, none of which Frankie was in a great position to eat. Worth noting is that Frankie has been moving less in his last few fights and it's really helped his power and defense. I'd prefer Tonon move a lot less, work on his pressure footwork, and layer his defense a bit more.
 
OneFC is such a garbage promotion it’s just really hard to tell where he actually could stand against a decent fighter
Garbage is extreme. There are a lot of quality fighters on the ONE roster who would be competitive in the UFC.

I mean, five years ago, people would have told you the state of Chinese MMA is garbage. Yet, Chinese fighters are now 5-0 in their last five fights in the UFC.
 
raju repped kerala well, i could only hope Indians (malus specifically) do better in sports in general, we do have the numbers to at least generate a few right?

who knows usualy Sikhs have the better genetics, may as well stick to medicine and engineering
 
Personally I hate this trend in MMA of 'jump around a lot, you'll confuse the opponent and be hard to hit'. There are like two guys who do it well, Cruz and Dillashaw, and for both of them they're moving for pretty specific reasons in patterns they've practiced many, many times. It's not random. For most people, less movement is going to mean you're in position to defend and counterattack more often, and it'll improve your ability to take a shot. You'll also be able to string shots together effectively which is almost impossible if you're leaping in every time you try to land. If you want to see what happens when a guy with truly good footwork faces a guy with fancy, overly movement oriented footwork looking to dart in to attack, watch Aldo - Edgar 1. Aldo has some of the best footwork in MMA. He's never out of position to counter, or defend a takedown, and you have to force him to give up angles of attack (which so far only Holloway has been able to do). Edgar bounced around the edge and every time he'd leap in Aldo would calmly pivot a few inches offline and lace him with a counter, none of which Frankie was in a great position to eat. Worth noting is that Frankie has been moving less in his last few fights and it's really helped his power and defense. I'd prefer Tonon move a lot less, work on his pressure footwork, and layer his defense a bit more.
Just the other day after the Stephens fight someone posted that aldo is flat footed with no footwork. They said he'll continue struggle against anyone with good footwork....I replied that aldo's footwork is excellent, but to most fans good footwork means lots of bouncing.

What still gives me hope for garry is he isvat least comfortable and relaxed. Hopefully he jumps on the other mma striking trend, which is training with high level boxers.
 
Just the other day after the Stephens fight someone posted that aldo is flat footed with no footwork. They said he'll continue struggle against anyone with good footwork....I replied that aldo's footwork is excellent, but to most fans good footwork means lots of bouncing.

What still gives me hope for garry is he isvat least comfortable and relaxed. Hopefully he jumps on the other mma striking trend, which is training with high level boxers.

That would be fantastic. Go hang out at Gleason's for a few years, beat up some cans, go the the UFC and wreck shop.
 
yeah but Aldo's over the hill now

Two losses to Holloway (a bad style matchup) and he starches Stephens and he's over the hill?

3045989.gif
 
It would be interesting to see Garry make a move to Ricardo Almeida's team and train with Edgar, Moraes, and Alvarez on a consistent basis. It makes a ton of sense to me, especially since Garry runs an RABJJ affiliate and he also wouldn't have to travel as much to train. I'd love to see what Garry's hands would be like after training with Mark Henry for a year.
 
Personally I hate this trend in MMA of 'jump around a lot, you'll confuse the opponent and be hard to hit'. There are like two guys who do it well, Cruz and Dillashaw, and for both of them they're moving for pretty specific reasons in patterns they've practiced many, many times. It's not random. For most people, less movement is going to mean you're in position to defend and counterattack more often, and it'll improve your ability to take a shot. You'll also be able to string shots together effectively which is almost impossible if you're leaping in every time you try to land. If you want to see what happens when a guy with truly good footwork faces a guy with fancy, overly movement oriented footwork looking to dart in to attack, watch Aldo - Edgar 1. Aldo has some of the best footwork in MMA. He's never out of position to counter, or defend a takedown, and you have to force him to give up angles of attack (which so far only Holloway has been able to do). Edgar bounced around the edge and every time he'd leap in Aldo would calmly pivot a few inches offline and lace him with a counter, none of which Frankie was in a great position to eat. Worth noting is that Frankie has been moving less in his last few fights and it's really helped his power and defense. I'd prefer Tonon move a lot less, work on his pressure footwork, and layer his defense a bit more.
What do you think of Cody’s standup style? Just curious.
 
What do you think of Cody’s standup style? Just curious.

Garbrandt? I think he's very, very good. I like his positioning, footwork, defense, he's got great power, pretty much the whole package. I don't really have any complaints about it. He's one of the better boxers in MMA.
 
The problem with having a sub heavy game in MMA is that subs *don't* do significant damage if they fail. That's why submission oriented fighters tend to be pretty inconsistent, whereas positionally sound grapplers who never lose top once they get it tend to win more consistently. That's not to say you can't go for subs, but you do it from a dominant position that you don't have to forfeit for the attack. Hence Demian Maia was very consistent, but he didn't jump on subs. He passed, stayed on top, took the back, and then attacked the RNC until he got it without every giving up position.

i think it depends. the constant threat of an instant submission, like tony ferguson, brian ortega, donald cerrone, and anthony pettis offer, makes your opponent cautious and creates openings in other areas. Ferguson and Ortega, in particular, are good models for Tonon because both excel at flowing the fight into their submission games.
 
Personally I hate this trend in MMA of 'jump around a lot, you'll confuse the opponent and be hard to hit'. There are like two guys who do it well, Cruz and Dillashaw, and for both of them they're moving for pretty specific reasons in patterns they've practiced many, many times. It's not random. For most people, less movement is going to mean you're in position to defend and counterattack more often, and it'll improve your ability to take a shot. You'll also be able to string shots together effectively which is almost impossible if you're leaping in every time you try to land. If you want to see what happens when a guy with truly good footwork faces a guy with fancy, overly movement oriented footwork looking to dart in to attack, watch Aldo - Edgar 1. Aldo has some of the best footwork in MMA. He's never out of position to counter, or defend a takedown, and you have to force him to give up angles of attack (which so far only Holloway has been able to do). Edgar bounced around the edge and every time he'd leap in Aldo would calmly pivot a few inches offline and lace him with a counter, none of which Frankie was in a great position to eat. Worth noting is that Frankie has been moving less in his last few fights and it's really helped his power and defense. I'd prefer Tonon move a lot less, work on his pressure footwork, and layer his defense a bit more.

to be fair, Tonon has displayed a similar high-movement style in his wrestling in grappling matches. I've actually always thought approach that got him in a little trouble at times, but certainly Tonon prefers to create scrambles when he fights. i guess the big concern in mma is that he will get flash ko'd instead of just taken down as he would in bjj.
 
i think it depends. the constant threat of an instant submission, like tony ferguson, brian ortega, donald cerrone, and anthony pettis offer, makes your opponent cautious and creates openings in other areas. Ferguson and Ortega, in particular, are good models for Tonon because both excel at flowing the fight into their submission games.
Charles Oliveira too. He can be spotty but when he’s on he lives he looks good.
 
i think it depends. the constant threat of an instant submission, like tony ferguson, brian ortega, donald cerrone, and anthony pettis offer, makes your opponent cautious and creates openings in other areas. Ferguson and Ortega, in particular, are good models for Tonon because both excel at flowing the fight into their submission games.

I agree it's good to have subs, but I wouldn't say either Ferguson or Ortega are sub focused in the sense that that's what they really need to win the fight, or even what they mainly look for. Obviously both are extremely dangerous and catch very good people, but either will also box you up. Neither need the takedown and sub to win, their subs mostly come off making people shoot on them due to fear of their striking. If Tonon really gets good wit his striking and can fight like that, he'll be very dangerous. What I worry about for him is the Marcin Held scenario where you HAVE to have the sub to win against anyone decent, and because your opponents know that and can deny you the chances you need you just get ground out every fight. Same thing happened to Palhares when he hit his ceiling against Belcher and the mystique was shattered: everyone realized 'oh hey, if I can just defend my legs I'll be on top and he has nothing else'. And that was the end of Stumpy as a dangerous fighter at the elite level.
 
we gonna pretend Danaher invented trapping the arm from back mount now, too?? coolio

Exactly, just like Helio invented leverage.

Can we all just be honest and admit that a good coach explains more than he invents?
 
I agree it's good to have subs, but I wouldn't say either Ferguson or Ortega are sub focused in the sense that that's what they really need to win the fight, or even what they mainly look for. Obviously both are extremely dangerous and catch very good people, but either will also box you up. Neither need the takedown and sub to win, their subs mostly come off making people shoot on them due to fear of their striking. If Tonon really gets good wit his striking and can fight like that, he'll be very dangerous. What I worry about for him is the Marcin Held scenario where you HAVE to have the sub to win against anyone decent, and because your opponents know that and can deny you the chances you need you just get ground out every fight. Same thing happened to Palhares when he hit his ceiling against Belcher and the mystique was shattered: everyone realized 'oh hey, if I can just defend my legs I'll be on top and he has nothing else'. And that was the end of Stumpy as a dangerous fighter at the elite level.

i think ortega and ferguson represent the next gen archetype for BJJ in MMA: subs and power shots, lots of unorthodox movement to create attacking angles, hyper-aggressive off their back, will wait for you to get tired... So far, Tonon definitely fits that mold.
 
Ortega may be nicknamed T-city but realistically speaking his biggest and most important sub threat is proficiency with the guillotine. And the reason it's so important is that it is his primary answer - an answer i personally approve of and find highly recommendable - to the factor of (most) takedown threats in gameplanning. Which ironically is right in line with the general principle of, it's a lot more feasible to deal with a takedown threat by doing something before you get taken down, than by putting your money on trying to do something after you get taken down. An ounce of prevention saves a pound of cure and all that.

(In one way you could possibly look at it in a sense of, 'making the best of a situation'; the best way forward someone with that background (and the snakeoil salesmen in his corner) could take.)

There are a number of different very good methods out there for dealing with potential takedowns threats utilized by a number highly successful fighters, as vagarious as the likes of Aldo, or Lawler, or GSP, or Mighty Mouse, or Whittaker, but pretty much all of them are participating in that same basic principle.
 
Last edited:
Ortega may be nicknamed T-city but realistically speaking his biggest and most important sub threat is proficiency with the guillotine...
I agree. His triple threat series (as Rener Gracie calls it) is top notch. He would've had Cub Swanson with that brabo if there was a few more seconds on the clock and one of his triangle choke victories (on Brandao maybe?) was set up from an anaconda choke that he stepped to mount with and then went to the triangle. Also when he briefly locked up the standing front headlock on Frankie Edgar you could see Edgar did everything he could to free himself asap. If Ortega can keep landing powerful strikes on people and force them to shoot he can finish easily with that triple threat front headlock series I think.
 
Ortega may be nicknamed T-city but realistically speaking his biggest and most important sub threat is proficiency with the guillotine, and the reason it's so important is that it is his primary answer - and an answer i heartily approve of - to the factor of (most) takedown threats in gameplanning. Which ironically is right in line with the general principle of, it's a lot more feasible to deal with a takedown threat by doing something before you get taken down, than by putting your money on trying to do something after you get taken down. An ounce of prevention saves a pound of cure and all that.

(In one way you could possibly look at it in a sense of, 'making the best of a situation'; the best way forward someone with that background (and the snakeoil salesmen in his corner) could take.)

There are a number of different very good methods out there for dealing with potential takedowns threats utilized by a number highly successful fighters, as vagarious as the likes of Aldo, or Lawler, or GSP, or Mighty Mouse, or Whittaker, but pretty much all of them are participating in that same basic principle.

he's got a lot of finishes via triangle, and i think you can take any of triangle, guillotine/darce/anaconda, or RNC to the bank with Ortega. from a BJJ perspective, the most inspiring thing about Ortega is how he uses his submissions as an offensive weapon on the feet; he will wrestle you into his chokes if you get into clinch range, but if you stay at Gracie Challenge range he will throw bombs and flying knees. And while we haven't seen him go for a flying triangle yet, he's clearly a master at it and i'm sure all of his opponents are keenly aware that it could come at any time (seems like he has some really solid trips as well). To me, all this is the purest representation of how modern BJJ can fit into MMA.
 
Back
Top