Glory 49 & Redemption: Verhoeven vs Ben Saddik

[Mafanofe]

the division isnt better

competition was way bigger in 70kg,prime Kyshenko-Souwer-Masato-Buakaw-young Petro-Sato are better than all these guys

Prime Zambidis,Young Holzken would beat most of the best guys today

This era guys like Mezouari,Allazov and Grigorian are all impressive,but i have any of the first guys listed over them all day

 

[Julius_Caesar]

the division isnt better

competition was way bigger in 70kg,prime Kyshenko-Souwer-Masato-Buakaw-young Petro-Sato are better than all these guys

Prime Zambidis,Young Holzken would beat most of the best guys today

This era guys like Mezouari,Allazov and Grigorian are all impressive,but i have any of the first guys listed over them all day

Well like i said you may not agree but its debatable and that's why I said arguably. I think most of those guys would have issues handling Marats pressure. Would look against Superbon similar to the way they looked against Buakaw because I think they didn't understand thai style as much back then. Get figured out by sittichai. And could possibly have issues with Chingiz, Yodwicha, out of prime Jomthong, baya, Kehl, Tayfun Ozcan, Manhoef, Gogokhia before he retired and maybe even new guys like Nayanesh Ayman, Mezouari, Endy Semeleer and Pashporin who keep randomly appearing. Even the older petro of today (without injuries) could possibly beat all of those apart from maybe Buakaw and young petro.

And not including Dylan Salvador and Robin Van Roosmalen because they moved down in weight.

I look at fighters like Zambidis in this video for example and cant help but notice if he was a fighter of today he would be more educated and would know how to handle buakaw better. Firstly more pressure which can be effective against Thai's. Wonder how this fight would look if Marat was in Zambidis place:

 

[Tayski]

only kickboxing has such a different attitude. The sense is that promoters, refs, commentators and (many) fans view the fighter as inferior or unqualified if they tie up.

Interestingly enough it's not when a fighter clinch that they view him as inferior (because a lot kickboxers clinch), it's rather when the fighter is active in the clinch - as in taking the back, tossing on the floor, or striking from the clinch - then they view it as lame and want to penalise it lol. But grabbing your opponent because you're tired or getting out-struck is almost accepted :/

 

[Tayski]

Well like i said you may not agree but its debatable and that's why I said arguably. I think most of those guys would have issues handling Marats pressure. Would look against Superbon similar to the way they looked against Buakaw because I think they didn't understand thai style as much back then. Get figured out by sittichai. And could possibly have issues with Chingiz, Yodwicha, out of prime Jomthong, baya, Kehl, Tayfun Ozcan, Manhoef, Gogokhia before he retired and maybe even new guys like Nayanesh Ayman, Mezouari, Endy Semeleer and Pashporin who keep randomly appearing. Even the older petro of today (without injuries) could possibly beat all of those apart from maybe Buakaw and young petro.

And not including Dylan Salvador and Robin Van Roosmalen because they moved down in weight.

I look at fighters like Zambidis in this video for example and cant help but notice if he was a fighter of today he would be more educated and would know how to handle buakaw better. Firstly more pressure which can be effective against Thai's. Wonder how this fight would look if Marat was in Zambidis place:

Of course times have changed, things have evolved and the knowledge has been passed. I would rather agree with @Mafanofe on the level of competition and numbers of competitors at the top being higher during those K-1 max days though - if you keep in mind that it was 10+ more years ago and the fighters of today have been able to learn from those fights and fighters.

So your example of a 2006-Zambidis being replaced by today's Marat vs. 2006-Buakaw doesn't make sense because a Westerner of today knows how to deal with a Thai fighter just as much as a Thai fighter of today knows how to deal with a Western fighter of today. It would be like me saying imagine if it were today's Sittichai or Superbon fighting a 2007-Masato in the K-1 Max WGP 2007 instead of Buakaw.

 

[Snubnoze707]

I look at fighters like Zambidis in this video for example and cant help but notice if he was a fighter of today he would be more educated and would know how to handle buakaw better. Firstly more pressure which can be effective against Thai's.

WTF, the whole thing about Thais starting slow and needing to put pressure on them has been a common point of commentary for decades. How is this some new discovery?

Just because you want to apply pressure doesn't mean you will be able to. You don't think Zambo wanted to try to overwhelm Buakaw? He did, he was just busy being overwhelmed himself...

Why didn't Grigorian just apply pressure on Yod?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

WTF, the whole thing about Thais starting slow and needing to put pressure on them has been a common point of commentary for decades. How is this some new discovery?

Just because you want to apply pressure doesn't mean you will be able to. You don't think Zambo wanted to try to overwhelm Buakaw? He did, he was just busy being overwhelmed himself...

Why didn't Grigorian just apply pressure on Yod?

Pressure is one of many things. I know its easier said then done but the worst thing you can do is sit back and let a Thai find his rhythm which is the mistake Grigiorian made against Yod but he did well in the first round. I think superbon has a closer style to buakaw than yod does so a better comparison is to see how Grigorian handles superbon in the final.

 

[Kanka]

If prime Sato fought current Marat Grigorian i'd put my money on Sato for sure.

 

[AbeRudder]

Grigorian would knock down Sato and possibly finish him, Sato was prone to getting tagged with punches and Grigorian hits hard. I think people are putting too much stock into the Grigorian/Yod and Yod/Souwer fights. Grigorian would do fine in peak K1 imo.

 

[Kanka]

Grigorian would knock down Sato and possibly finish him, Sato was prone to getting tagged with punches and Grigorian hits hard. I think people are putting too much stock into the Grigorian/Yod and Yod/Souwer fights. Grigorian would do fine in peak K1 imo.

From what i remember he took Kyshenkos punches pretty well. And that is a guy that beat Yodsanklai. I'm not disregarding Grigorian he is very good, but that's just what i think would happen in that hypothetical scenario. The division is also not much better now, or well the top guys aren't facing each other so difficult to know. Who are the best apart frlm Sittichai, Marat, Superbon? Mezouari? Someone like JWP would have finished him i believe.

Washed up Buakaw, Petrosyan, Dzhabar, Yodsanklai still doing pretty well in recent years should be an indicator of the level of competition today.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Grigorian is the most overhyped fighter ever. He is incredibly one dimensional and you know what you are getting every single time he fights. I'll take prime Sato any day. See how Marat handles those gut munching knees and a level of pressure that is even more harsher than his.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Seriously, just to reiterate... I'm sick of hearing about Marat fucking Grigorian. Most overrated fighter in Sherdog history. Please make it stop. I'm begging you...

He's a journeyman. He's this generations Mike Zambidis. Lets get the facts straight.

 

[Mafanofe]

People maybe forgot how good guys like prime Zambidis and Sato used to be

it haves a simple principle to prove it first,when the number of competitors are way bigger and they haves to pass through a "quality funneling" to belong to major events the competitors are better...

if you compare the date that everyone started to fight on max 2002 Kraus,Masato,2005 Souwer,2004 Buakaw,2005 Sato,2006 Kyshenko to their prime times:

Prime Kraus(2006-2009) Prime Buakaw(2006-2007) Prime Masato(2007-2008) Prime Souwer (2007-2008) Prime Sato(2007-2008) Prime Kyshenko(2007-2011)

it is a bit suspect why their prime days look to be in similar years right?

they evolved a lot as a fighters due the highest level K-1 Max competition,evolved with their losses and wins,the hard training to be the champion of the year edition...If you compare a 2002 Masato with a 2007 one,you will see a very big difference in terms of skills,fight IQ,speed,conditioning)

straight and hard competition made their being the best versions of themselves,this is why they are technically better than today´s elite 70kg.

I would put my money all day on:


Prime Buakaw over Sitthichai

Prime Zambidis over Gogokhia-RVR

Prime Sato over Grigorian-Mezouari

Prime Kyshenko vs Allazov or anyone else

Prime Masato-Souwer over anyone else apart from Sitthichai(the thai based who used to give way more problems in the past,maybe masato could slick and score but i dont think Souwer could do a lot)



For Example,Pacquiao wouldnt be near the monster he was if he never stepped up the competition and trained with a guy like Roach

the hard training to face champions such as Barrera,Marquez,Morales...every of them evolved a lot as fighters with the competitivity

other example:

If you have a fictional country that there is only 1 or 2 fastfood stores,in theory quality of food(better taste and not health of course)-lower prices wouldnt be near compared to a country where there is thousands of fastfood stores competing against each other to attract consomers making themselves better because of the necessity-desire to be relevant in the market and win profits each time bigger or investing everything to keep getting a bigger franchise to the estimated future be one of the main who dominates the market...

Burger King wouldnt taste well if Mcdonalds and other fastfood franchises never existed.

Hyundai cars wouldnt be good as they are without Toyota´s, Wolkswagen´s, Ford´s,Nissan´s and Fiat´s around them

Competition generates evolution.

 

[AbeRudder]

Seriously, just to reiterate... I'm sick of hearing about Marat fucking Grigorian. Most overrated fighter in Sherdog history. Please make it stop. I'm begging you...

He's a journeyman. He's this generations Mike Zambidis. Lets get the facts straight.

I don't even like Grigorian as a fighter but Sato was very prone to eating punches and lost to guys like Drago and Kalakoda. He lost most of his big fights apart from the upset over Buakaw and a win over Zambidis. I think people are overrating the level of peak K1 max, it was more competitive and the 70kg division was deeper but people are making it out like the current crop of top fighters would never be able to cut it in k1 max.

 

[Mafanofe]

I don't even like Grigorian as a fighter but Sato was very prone to eating punches and lost to guys like Drago and Kalakoda. He lost most of his big fights apart from the upset over Buakaw and a win over Zambidis.

that wasnt prime sato Bud,Prime Sato outclassed Direkçi,Defeated Mes,Knocked Buakaw,had a even fight with Masato and a competitive one with Kyshenko

Prime Sato was a different monster

 

[AbeRudder]

that wasnt prime sato Bud,Prime Sato outclassed Direkçi,Defeated Mes,Knocked Buakaw,had a even fight with Masato and a competitive one with Kyshenko

Prime Sato was a different monster

The Drago loss was only a year after the Buakaw win. A lot of the reason I say that Marat would win is stylistic given that Sato thrives when he has a length and reach, I'd have him over someone like Kiria (guess that doesn't mean much currently) and could see him beating RVR or Jomthong.

 

[Snubnoze707]

I can't even answer. I don't even need to.

@Mafanofe is killing it and my easy pick for 2017 Sherdog Poster of the Year.

nuff said...

and BTW, Sato was robbed against Masato, just as Kyshenko was that night.

 

[Mafanofe]

The Drago loss was only a year after the Buakaw win. A lot of the reason I say that Marat would win is stylistic given that Sato thrives when he has a length and reach, I'd have him over someone like Kiria (guess that doesn't mean much currently) and could see him beating RVR or Jomthong.

yeah Sato prime was metheoric

didnt make sense a guy in theory defeat Masato and knock Buakaw than hold a loss against Drago

but drago had a universe sized heart of ever trying and never giving up,so sometimes he was able to make some crazy things happen

 

[Mafanofe]

I can't even answer. I don't even need to.

@Mafanofe is killing it and my easy pick for 2017 Sherdog Poster of the Year.

nuff said...

and BTW, Sato was robbed against Masato, just as Kyshenko was that night.

lel thanks bro


i also think that both decision should go the other way but they had to make anything possible to give masato the 2008 belt because everyone knew that Petro was coming heheh

 

[Snubnoze707]

Holy shit this looks tremendous on my big screen TV. Way better than the Korean broadcast bootleg I had back in the day.

Who is throwing a switch lead roundhouse like Buakaw today? Look at him. He's at another level in this fight. Bring on Grigorian and these other Jabroni's into that MAX era.

There shouldn't even be a debate. The K-1 MAX era was way more deeper than what we are seeing today. The sport wasn't fractured back then.

 

[AbeRudder]

Holy shit this looks tremendous on my big screen TV. Way better than the Korean broadcast bootleg I had back in the day.

Who is throwing a switch lead roundhouse like Buakaw today? Look at him. He's at another level in this fight. Bring on Grigorian and these other Jabroni's into that MAX era.

There shouldn't even be a debate. The K-1 MAX era was way more deeper than what we are seeing today. The sport wasn't fractured back then.

Well I didn't intend to be the defendant of Marat Grigorian's honor in this thread but I don't see how it's so incredulous to say that'd he'd be a tough fight for a guy that struggled with european boxing based kickboxers. I even said that K1 max had a deeper 70kg division....