Going Vegan

[KeepingItReal]

Insects are animals.

That have a less complex neurological neurological systems and thus feel less pain, at least this true in human perception. A human can hear a cow screaming out in pain as it's being sliced open, definitely they cannot hear a mosquito cry out in pain.

If it's a sustainable food source that offered superior nutrients while also revitalizing the soil then why wouldn't you? From a moral standpoint I get it, but do you lose sleep over all the wildlife killed in vein for your plant based food choices? I'd wager you don't. I can eat one grassfed cow or buffalo for hundreds of meals. One big death vs thousands of small ones.

Superior nutrients? There is no such thing as superior nutrients and inferior nutrients, what rubish are you talking? All the nutrients that have been identified are needed for the human body to function. All of them can be found in plants, mushrooms algie, fermented foods, with the exception of vitamin B12 which you cannot get in any good amount from food. This vitamin is also being given to animals because they are also missing it in their food.

I don't see what me losing sleep has to do with this, I lose sleep over the dumbest stuff, so that doesn't really relate to this conversation.

 

[wufabufa]

That have a less complex neurological neurological systems and thus feel less pain, at least this true in human perception. A human can hear a cow screaming out in pain as it's being sliced open, definitely they cannot hear a mosquito cry out in pain.



Superior nutrients? There is no such thing as superior nutrients and inferior nutrients, what rubish are you talking? All the nutrients that have been identified are needed for the human body to function. All of them can be found in plants, mushrooms algie, fermented foods, with the exception of vitamin B12 which you cannot get in any good amount from food. This vitamin is also being given to animals because they are also missing it in their food.

I don't see what me losing sleep has to do with this, I lose sleep over the dumbest stuff, so that doesn't really relate to this conversation.

I'm having a hard time following your logic regarding what animals deserve to live and which ones you're fine killing for no reason at all. There are a lot of animals that don't communicate pain in "human" ways, so it's ok to kill them? Insects absolutely feel pain, and not just pain, but chronic pain when recovering from injuries.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aaw4099

Yes superior nutrient profiles are found in animal foods. A beef liver gram for gram is going to have a far better nutrient profile than any plant food that exists today. Everything from its amino acid profile to the preformed vitamins and minerals that are more easily assimilated by the human body. Are you going to absorb more vitamin A from retinol found in beef liver, or from beta-carotene found in tubers? Heme iron found in muscle meat vs nonheme iron found in spinach? The protein found in animal foods is far more complete than in plants. Animals are basically bioconverters. Many of them spend upwards of 16+ hours per day eating, turning readily available, low nutrient plant matter into meat/organs that are nearly complete in their nutritional offerings. It's amazing that a cow can turn inedible grass, silage, and hay into an easily digestible food that can sustain our bodies.

B12 is super easy to get if you're eating animal products. One serving of wild caught sardines will net you 132% of your RDA of B12. I just had bloodwork done a month ago and my B12 status is in the upper end of normal limits without supplementation while eating wild caught game and grassfed beef/pastured eggs from my cousin's farm.

I'm lucky enough to have access to nutritious food grown by people who give a damn about the quality of it. Your claim of "rubbish" really seems like it's beyond a simple misunderstanding. It actually appears to be willful ignorance at this point.

 

[Volador]

The moral argument for veganism always seemed largely nonsensical to me. I can see how factory farming isn't good for the animals, but in a completely vegan world, most of those animals would never be born. A chicken or cow leading a normal life and then getting killed painlessly, or with minimal pain, is better for the chicken than it never being born at all. It's not like these animals are taken from their habitat, they are raised for that specific purpose and simply wouldn't exist otherwise. I can't see how that would be a gain for the chicken, or particularly morally superior from an animal lover's POV. So I can get the gripe with factory farming, but being against raising cattle for food in general is absurd to me.

 

[nonoob]

Does Tofu protein contribute higher estrogen than chicken, beef or fish?

 

[deviake]

The moral argument for veganism always seemed largely nonsensical to me. I can see how factory farming isn't good for the animals, but in a completely vegan world, most of those animals would never be born. A chicken or cow leading a normal life and then getting killed painlessly, or with minimal pain, is better for the chicken than it never being born at all. It's not like these animals are taken from their habitat, they are raised for that specific purpose and simply wouldn't exist otherwise. I can't see how that would be a gain for the chicken, or particularly morally superior from an animal lover's POV. So I can get the gripe with factory farming, but being against raising cattle for food in general is absurd to me.

Are you anti-abortion?

 

[Volador]

Are you anti-abortion?

Nope

 

[deviake]

Nope

What about all the babies that won't be born?

 

[Volador]

What about all the babies that won't be born?

What about them?

 

[deviake]

What about them?

I can see how factory farming isn't good for the animals, but in a completely vegan world, most of those animals would never be born.

 

[Volador]

You are engaging in a false equivalence. It's one thing to say that "I don't see how preventing the birth of chickens is morally superior to raising them ethically and eating them" and it's another thing to say "No one should ever prevent the birth of any chickens" or "every chicken should always be born". After all I have no problem killing the chicken; I’m not pro-chicken life. If someone wanted to kill chickens before they're born because, for example, they have no space or resources to raise them, or they have too many, or some other valid reason, that's fine with me. I wouldn't promote a law against it, and I wouldn't care if it’s done properly. But if another person wanted to raise an animal and eat it at some point, I wouldn’t mind that either.

And I wouldn't advocate to raise children to eat as cattle either or killing them once they’re grown, so I fail to see how any of these things are related. Abortion discussions have more to do with personal freedoms of parents and to which level governments should regulate these. I don’t think it’s more morally enlightened to abort a fetus than not doing it in all situations, but I also don’t think it should be illegal. It’s something the parents or mother would have to deal with privately, ultimately, not the governments. Hence, I am not against it and wouldn’t make it illegal, although I’m certainly not a pro-abortion activist. Not sure why you shoehorned in an abortion question into a vegan thread lmao.

 

[deviake]

You are engaging in a false equivalence

Um, no.

And factory farmed animals don't have painless lives or deaths.

 

[deviake]

If someone wanted to kill chickens before they're born because, for example, they have no space or resources to raise them, or some other reason, that's fine with me, and I wouldn't promote a law against it, and I wouldn't care.

That you wouldn't care is clear.

You don't have to kill them before they're born (??), you just don't breed the shit out of them.

"What about the babies that won't be born... because people use birth control!"

Same shit. Sounds sillier in a different context, doesn't it.

 

[Volador]

Um, no.

Obviously, yes. "A is not necessarily always better than B", is not the same as saying "B is always better than A in all situations".

If they’re going to be bred and raised and killed with no or little pain, why would you be against breeding them? The animal would get to live a life and experience many hours of enjoyment that it wouldn’t have otherwise, because it wouldn’t have lived at all.

And factory farmed animals don't have painless lives or deaths.

I explicitly said that I can understand being against factory farming, so not sure why you point this out. Many vegans make a blanket statement that eating or killing animals in general is immoral in all conditions except life or death danger, which is what I question.

 

[deviake]

Obviously, yes. "A is not always better than B", is not the same as saying "B is always better than A in all situations".



I explicitly said that I can understand being against factory farming, so not sure why you point this out. Many vegans make a blanket statement that eating or killing animals in general is immoral in all conditions.

Um, no. It still doesn't make sense. It's as silly as the "what about the plants?" arguments which it's like, animals eat plants so...? Same shit.

 

[Volador]

Um, no. It still doesn't make sense. It's as silly as the "what about the plants?" arguments which it's like, animals eat plants so...? Same shit.

What is as silly as the "what about the plants"? You lost me bro.

I think you are confused. I didn’t say that you should raise as many chickens as possible if you love animals. I’m just saying that preferring those animals not being born, rather than having someone raising them and killing them ethically, does nothing positive for the animals. Not sure which part of this is confusing.

 

[deviake]

What is as silly as the "what about the plants"? You lost me bro.

You didn't make that argument, others have and almost always do in these threads. I brought it up as a measure on the silliness meter.

 

[KeepingItReal]

I'm having a hard time following your logic regarding what animals deserve to live and which ones you're fine killing for no reason at all.

You must have me mistaken with someone who has a mistaken identity with god, I don't know what anybody or what any animal deserves. It's only a question if I had to kill something that is more sentients versus something that is less sentient then I would go for the less sentient thing, thus killing plants seems more sensible. Anyways you keep bringing up insects, who in the hell said you should kill insects? That's just a byproduct of farming, any kind of farming that you do, because many factory farmed animals are eating grains, which have pesticides sprayed on them, the insect killing is definitely higher in animal agriculture.

Yes superior nutrient profiles are found in animal foods. A beef liver gram for gram is going to have a far better nutrient profile than any plant food that exists today.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I
Everything from its amino acid profile to the preformed vitamins and minerals that are more easily assimilated by the human body.

Considering the digestion time of meat vs plants, that claim definitely doesn't stand up to the evidence.

Are you going to absorb more vitamin A from retinol found in beef liver, or from beta-carotene found in tubers?

The question is do I need more? Is there any evidence that the vitamin A I am getting from carrot juice isn't just the amount I need?

Heme iron found in muscle meat vs nonheme iron found in spinach?

Oh you better be careful with pointing that out because heme-iron has been associated with cancer risk.

The protein found in animal foods is far more complete than in plants.

Therefore, animals must be killed for you to eat. Talk about baboon brained logic.

B12 is super easy to get if you're eating animal products. One serving of wild caught sardines will net you 132% of your RDA of B12. I just had bloodwork done a month ago and my B12 status is in the upper end of normal limits without supplementation while eating wild caught game and grassfed beef/pastured eggs from my cousin's farm.

Yes it's super easy that why B12 deficiency was found in a large part of the US population, non-vegans I might add. And it's wonderful for you that you can absorb it, but there are people who can't absorb B12 through the digestive process for whatever reason, that's why sublinguals exist.

I'm lucky enough to have access to nutritious food grown by people who give a damn about the quality of it. Your claim of "rubbish" really seems like it's beyond a simple misunderstanding. It actually appears to be willful ignorance at this point.

Ignorance? You speak of ignorance? You refer to animals as

Animals are basically bioconverters. Many of them spend upwards of 16+ hours per day eating, turning readily available, low nutrient plant matter into meat/organs that are nearly complete in their nutritional offerings. It's amazing that a cow can turn inedible grass, silage, and hay into an easily digestible food that can sustain our bodies.

In other words you don't see animals as living beings deserving of their own life, you only see them as what they can do for you, by dying. That is the peak of ignorance.

 

[chimpoehurricane]

Due to my ethical values and environmental concerns, I realized I can no longer buy animal products. I've been vegan for a several months now.

It's been easier than I thought in the sense I don't really miss meat or other animal products. I thought I would miss cheese the most, and so far It's been fine. It helps that I've been in countries with lots of Buddhists and Hindus who have had a long tradition of vegetarian/vegan cuisine.

I biggest concern was health and muscle loss. But so far I look at feel the same. I bench numbers haven't gone down. My bowel movements have a improved dramatically as I used to suffer from painful long shits. Whether that's due to the lack of meat or other factors, who knows. I also take b12 supplements as advised.

Maybe the hardest part is having to remember to check if things are vegan. Many places have put milk in my coffee or egg as I forget to ask.

I'm still new to this, and so far I feel fine, but I wonder if there are more experienced people out here who can shed more insight.

It seems estrogenic. Maybe research and reconsider