Gracie Combatives - What the hell?

Training with someone in person usually makes it pretty easy to tell if they are a giant doucher or a pretty cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything.

Exactly. I don't believe rank is a rigid set of requirements.

  • It isn't solely based on the number of techniques you know. You can know 1000 different techniques and not be able to pull them off against resisting opponents. But there is a minimum requirement. You need a broad range of knowledge.

    Everyone wants a list of technical requirements. There are plenty of DVDs and "mail-order" affiliations that use this method. This is arguable the easiest part of rank, but it isn't more important than ability or character. You can easily test knowledge. But it's hardly the most important part.

  • It isn't solely based on performance either. You can tap out every blue belt and still be a white belt. But there is a minimum requirement of performance (weighted by age or other circumstances). You got to back up what your know with competence.

    One of the biggest things IMO are how well you can use your own body. The better you get, the better you can move your hips out while keeping pressure. The better you can take a fall without hurting your head. The better you can relax while rolling. The better you can train - either being too stiff nor too floppy. This is one of the hardest things to learn.

    And it isn't totally about competition victory. Competition is a great tool & way to evaluate performance. Competing regularly tests your character, knowledge, and skill. But it isn't the only tool, nor is it a perfect test.

  • It isn't solely based on attendance. You got to show commitment. You represent the instructor when you are promoted. He has to get to know you.

    You can't just train for a month, get a blue belt, then leave. Instructors HATE it when people quit after getting promoted. Rank is supposed to motivate you to learn more, to challenge yourself at the next level in tournaments. It isn't supposed to be the end of your training.

  • It isn't solely based on character. You don't have to be a saint. But you aren't going to get promoted if you're an obvious jerk. There are plenty of black belts that get in fights. Even in jiu-jitsu, there are many people who aren't good guys. That's a shame, and I truly believe it should change.

    You got to be able to train without ego. You're supposed to leave your ego off the mat. You got to be comfortable tapping to lower belts. I've seen places promote so their higher belts feel better. That's ego. This is part of the character requirement.

    And are you becoming more confident? More imaginative or more serious about training? More open minded to different games? Not limiting yourself? Character isn't just about not being a douche bag.

You can have a list of guidelines, but not everyone fits. Beyond reasonable minimum requirements. you also teach your instructor how to promote you. Are you reaching your goals? If you want to win the worlds, you won't get promoted unless you get close and are allowed a shot at it. If you want to defend yourself on the street, you'll be weighed more heavily that way.

The Gracies Academy can judge the 1st part to an extent from internet videos of people performing their technical forms. Pedro Sauer may be able to judge some technique and some performance after watching someone roll after a few moments, but that paints an incomplete picture. I also wonder what he misses - some people have great guards but horrible takedowns. I am totally against such unbalanced games.

Neither can know the person from one private lesson or a youtube video. Neither can know if they are reaching their own goals in the art, or whether promotion is all they're after. They can't know if promotion will help their training or hurt it.

That's a few reasons why I'm against internet testing or testing just based on performance from a few rolls.
 
"I think Halo is a pretty cool guy. eh kills alains and doesnt afraid of anything" is an internet meme.

I lol'd at Bagelgods "submit" pun.

I guess we both have pretty lame senses of humor.

But yeah, I don't mean training as in just rolling with. Jimmy Cerra covered what I was getting at in detail. I like your point about commitment Jimmy. I know of guys who left for months and came back, on their first week back they wanted their next stripe because their attendance showed they should be there. They were turned down obviously.
It's a characteristic that you really need to know the person over time to fairly judge. Take a pilot for example. Can't necessarily train consistently, but does make it in when he can. He doesn't bitch and moan about not getting his stripes or blue belt, he just trains when he can. That's commitment.
Someone else might train consistently for months or a year and when promotions come around the expect their belt and they don't get it so instead of asking what they need to improve to get the promotion they find another gym, better yet find another gym That's not commitment. That's entitlement. While this person may have the technical knowledge of a blue belt he by no means deserves it.
Attendance and commitment are correlated but not the same thing. Both the above examples are things I've seen.
 
Just checking in...

I don't know what to say about the belt standard and video test. I just want to get my purple belt. I live in bfe so promotions come slow or maybe I just suck :) 8 year blue belt.

I just competed for the first time since 07. Won both divisions but they were both one opponent so who knows?

Anyway the combatives blue belt that has not done any roll'n in my oppinion maybe in for a rude awakining against the larger more athletic opponent self defense or not.

For us the instruction via the gracie university is a great option and we know we are getting good technique. Eventually we'll have a black belt in our club but until then it's videos and road trips :)

****edit 8 years training 4 year blue belt """""""
 
Last edited:
@jimmy cerra You lay some interesting arguments and I see some of your points. But, again it comes to basic business fundamentals. The Gracie Combatives are not only well done, sequential and offer a standardized set of required learning objectives IT MAKES GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. This is America. It's free market, capitalism. It's the capitalism you love and everyone in America loves. You can't have it both ways. Did you and everyone else here complaining about the Gracie Combatives ever stop and think "did the Gracies get into teaching their brand of martial art so that only a handful of people would know about it?" Do you think the Gracies wanted to be unknown and let only a few select few learn their brand of martial art? Again, that's snobby and very very narrow minded.
The Gracies want to be able to market their brand globally, which they are doing. Does it make it any less effective? NO. It all depends on the individual. Just like going to College, what you put in is what you get out. You can be an average student by doing the minimum or you can push yourself to excel and stand out from the pack.
The Gracies have a curriculum, which a majority of standard BJJ gyms don't have. That's a fact. Many BJJ gyms just throw beginners in with the group. Those who can hang with the higher belts get promoted over time. Those who can't hang either drop out or wait a long time for promotion. The Gracies offer a set curriculum, which is a way I prefer to learn. I want to know there are objectives and specific techniques that are required before moving to the next level.
You people shouldn't care what others are doing. Like I said before, the Gracie Combatives offer people a chance to learn and practice with friends and family. It is helping people in more ways than one. If they help someone out of a tough spot or a women is able to defend herself against a rapist then it was useful. Maybe it just allows friends to train together who cannot afford the inflated gym prices.
By reading many of the posts here it comes down to your secret little club. You don't want anyone else to know about it.
Just do what you are doing, enjoy it and stop being concerned that someone out in the world is learning Gracie jujitsu via DVD and may take a test for blue belt.
Unbelievable how hung up many of you are about it. Martial Arts in America is a business. That's a fact you need to accept ASAP.
 
I also see your point about character, but it's very naive. This isn't feudal era Japan. Walk into any Muay Thai or Boxing gym and you will drown in ego and attitude. People wanting to fight you all the time, testing you. Everyone talking trash about Muay Thai, Bjj, MMA. It goes back and forth. It's stupid. Even when you just want to workout and enjoy your day. There are a lot of gang bangers that you can find in Muay Thai gyms and Boxing gyms. What about their characters?

The Gracie Combatives cut down on travel time to a gym, save you gas money or bus fare, and allow people to train in their home or apartment. Again, it all comes down to economics. It's affordable, time efficient and offers quality instruction. Bottom line is if you can't learn from watching a DVD then something is wrong with you. It has pause and rewind. something you don't have in live instruction.
 
I have known people that did not get promoted because they did not have the correct character for the belt.

And I have seen the reverse. But really this doesn't define "correct character" and I don't see how jiu-jitsu is ever going to address this. Or any martial art for that matter. I've heard lots of talk and seen lots of ad space extol the character building virtues of doing such and such martial art but really its just a matter of opinion.

Frankly, I think its a bunch of bunk. What may be a admirable character trait in one geographic area or culture might be looked down upon in another. There are so many different types of mores that an instructor would have a hard time just figuring out the correct moral code for each student that he has in his class.

I can easily see it now. Living in Utah there are certain standards that a significant portion of the population try to adhere to. Is that how we are going to determine one's character? I doubt it.

What if we simply apply a rule of no illegal drug use? How many students would not be able to be promoted because of that? Actually, this would be easy to test by using surprise piss tests. What percentage of the individuals on this forum would fail that "character" test? I wonder....

Anyhoo, while it may be a worthy goal to shoot for I still do not see any way to achieve it. Been wondering about this for close to 40 years; ever since my first Karate class.
 
And I have seen the reverse. But really this doesn't define "correct character" and I don't see how jiu-jitsu is ever going to address this.
Anyhoo, while it may be a worthy goal to shoot for I still do not see any way to achieve it. Been wondering about this for close to 40 years; ever since my first Karate class.

well it is simple.

I met a Brasilian and asked him how long he has been training.

He said that he stayed at white belt for 4 years. It really freak me out so he explained that his master did not promote him to blue because he did not have the correct attitude.

I guess if you do not fit in their mold, you are not gonna make it.
 
****edit 8 years training 4 year blue belt """""""

sounds like u r right on schedule for purple and if ur working or doing school full time during that time period, its not that u suck its just u may not have accumulated enough mat time, u only doin 1-2 classes per week?
 
How are you defining the word "gang"?

well, in most BJJ teams,

100% loyalty
Not allowed to train at other gym
Once you get your first belt, you are regarded as a traitor if you leave
You have to walk the gaunlet at graduation, usually the higher the belt the more walk you have to do. it is about 3 up and down for brown belt. and you do not want to know what they do for BB.

The higher belts get more responsibilities and more power on the lower belts.

Once you move out of the academy, you have to ask their blessing to open your own academy.

You still expected to pay affiliation fees and seminars. etc...

Edit: I forgot to mention team tattoo!
 
well, in most BJJ teams,

100% loyalty
Not allowed to train at other gym
Once you get your first belt, you are regarded as a traitor if you leave
You have to walk the gaunlet at graduation, usually the higher the belt the more walk you have to do. it is about 3 up and down for brown belt. and you do not want to know what they do for BB.

The higher belts get more responsibilities and more power on the lower belts.

Once you move out of the academy, you have to ask their blessing to open your own academy.

You still expected to pay affiliation fees and seminars. etc...


lol! I must admit the way you put it it does sound pretty bad. I wonder what percentage of schools have this custom of running the gauntlet? Neither of the two schools I have been a part of have had this tradition. Does the Gracie Academy do this? I guess that would be pretty hard to do online! Maybe some self-flagellation is required and you have to submit a video of it.

All kidding aside, it sounds like what your saying is basically all about the almighty dollar. Don't go to another school as we want your money. Don't open a school under another banner as we want the money. Don't open a school in competition with our school as we want the money. Now that is a clear cut standard that could be used to establish someone's character. No doubt about it.

I can see the check list:

1. Did he pay his dues on time? Check
2. Did he stay with my school the whole time? Check
3. When opening up an affiliation did he pay the membership fees? Check

I guess he has character and is ready for his next belt.
 
when somebody comes from another academy (especially a rival team), he will have to roll with everybody (non stop) and it will conclude with getting owned by the new sensei.
It is just a part of the initiation!

It is not about money, it is about loyalty towards the group.
 
when somebody comes from another academy (especially a rival team), he will have to roll with everybody (non stop) and it will conclude with getting owned by the new sensei.
It is just a part of the initiation!

It is not about money, it is about loyalty towards the group.


I'll make a mental note to never train there (wherever "there" is). Initiations, gauntlets, team loyalty sounds a little weird to me. If I'm a paying money then I'm a customer. At least thats my view on it.

Anyone would be hard pressed to convince me that its not about the money. And I'm damn sure you would be hard pressed to convince the instructors wife that it isn't about the money! Add kids to the mix and its a no-brainer.

Just my two cents:)


Lechien - Seriously, where do you train? Is that really what its like there?
 
I am not saying it is good or bad.

I am stating what I see or hear.

To be honest, if you and/or your team mates win/lose to another team, years after years. just add some defections between camps and you got yourselves a nice rivalry between teams. Nothing special really.

It just creates animosity within the sport.

While some other guys will be like :"we all one, we all love our brothers that trains JJ", some others just live it differently.
 
I'm just picturing a battlefield with hundreds of uniformed dudes 'hugging it out' on the ground. :icon_lol:
 
From what Liechen has described it sounds like a secret club, a gang. call it what you will. And, by the time you get your black belt you will have spent between 9,000-10,000 dollars on monthly memberships fees (wait,they call it Gym Dues). I hope it is money well spent. It is a bad investment from an economic point of view because you won't get a return on your money.

The majority of people just want to be able to defend themselves and/or get physically fit. Again, the Gracie Combatives offer that opportunity.
Fighting in the ring with rules is very different from fighting for your life on the street.
Pulling someone into your guard on the street is dangerous. The guy could have a punch knife or four friends. What I know of Bjj Gyms they don't practice defense against weapons. Friends I have that study Bjj have told me they have never gone over weapons defense. Maybe someone here can give more insight on that.
 
Like Dave9019 said, just give your money to Renee and Ralek Gracie and just train with your friends in your garage by watching their online videos.

It is more economical.
 
From what Liechen has described it sounds like a secret club, a gang. call it what you will. And, by the time you get your black belt you will have spent between 9,000-10,000 dollars on monthly memberships fees (wait,they call it Gym Dues). I hope it is money well spent. It is a bad investment from an economic point of view because you won't get a return on your money.

The majority of people just want to be able to defend themselves and/or get physically fit. Again, the Gracie Combatives offer that opportunity.
Fighting in the ring with rules is very different from fighting for your life on the street.
Pulling someone into your guard on the street is dangerous. The guy could have a punch knife or four friends. What I know of Bjj Gyms they don't practice defense against weapons. Friends I have that study Bjj have told me they have never gone over weapons defense. Maybe someone here can give more insight on that.

I didn't know GC have weapons defense? When I used to attend to a GC school we've gone through the 36 techniques over and over without weapons disarmament, only checking punches and headbutt. So now GC has that as well?
 
Back
Top