Has BJJ Stopped evolving for MMA?

[jack36767]

Wrestling can work, but Wonderboy and Holly Holm just learned the defenses...that's all they need to keep kickboxing.

BJJ does suck, most of these guys can't fight if they only train BJJ. Everything sucks by itself, which is exactly my point. Get some Judo knowledge, cross train and quit making excuses.

You don't see any more Gracie challenges, typical BJJ hipster belt don't want to get punched and can't handle striking and can't take a fall on soft mats. Disgraceful.

They need MMA for that, which leads me back to my point. Every martial art "sucks" individually. Boxing sucks every bit as bad as TKD but with something else they're both good.

Stop trying to grab a guy's legs when you're in a clinch, don't punch a guy laying flat on yo back son, use martial arts for what they are intended for.

Lol...I see how twisty your point becomes as you need it. And I've never been against cross training or excuses....in fact the whole reason I've gotten annoyed with you is because you're trying to make excuses and say that their are magical cures or short cuts...or ways not to wrestle..or that wrestling can just be stopped with underhooks which are so easy to get...lol

But hey...change your point again and don't bother reading my posts.. it's the usual JV thing to take shortcuts

 

[number9dream]

Haven't seen all of these fights so I won't comment on all of them.

But you use Mendes vs Conor to show your point?

Mendes couldn't do anything with those takedowns, Conor knocked him out. lol

Because you used McGregor as an example of the unstoppable underhook defense when he actually got taken down repeatedly.

And Mendes was clearly up 2 rounds before the ko.

 

[fittycentguard]

 

[BrainBar]

BJJ has become irrelevant in MMA. The best way to become a true MMA fighter is to take roids, get some dragons and skull tattoos, get really angry and talk about your horrible childhood, then swing for the fences with mediocre striking.

 

[TehGwarch]

Lol...I see how twisty your point becomes as you need it. And I've never been against cross training or excuses....in fact the whole reason I've gotten annoyed with you is because you're trying to make excuses and say that their are magical cures or short cuts...or ways not to wrestle..or that wrestling can just be stopped with underhooks which are so easy to get...lol

But hey...change your point again and don't bother reading my posts.. it's the usual JV thing to take shortcuts

Don't get me wrong, wrestling is not that hard to counter overall. Double unders, pretty much like Gus vs Jones.

Unless it's in So Cal but I stay out of So Cal, you know that brah.

 

[TehGwarch]

Because you used McGregor as an example of the unstoppable underhook defense when he actually got taken down repeatedly.

And Mendes was clearly up 2 rounds before the ko.

He didn't exactly implement it but generally speaking, against most he has good TDD. Mendes has a good shot, very fast, no doubt.

You cannot complete a double leg on someone who has deep underhooks on you and they can easily hip throw or uchi mata you if you insist.

Most of these fuckers don't know what an uchi mata is, that's my point.

Mendes was up 2 rounds before he got knocked the fuck out. Ringing endorsement I suppose. lol

 

[TehGwarch]

Because you used McGregor as an example of the unstoppable underhook defense when he actually got taken down repeatedly.

And Mendes was clearly up 2 rounds before the ko.

He's a kickboxer with decent takedown defense. Like wonderboy, he wins in spite of making some glaring errors (overhooking, shallow underhooks, etc.)

Takedown defense isn't all technique, some people are naturally stable on their feet and others are not. Conor is good overall, he manages to either not get taken down or control the situation and get up.

I used Gus vs Jones as an example of what I recommend.

 

[TehGwarch]

Weidman knocked out Silva because he had taken down and beaten the shit out of Silva before almost submitting him in the first round...Silva was doing those antics to goad Weidman into a mistake after that

Liddell used his wrestling to keep fights standing and escape back control....you obviously have such an experienced eye watching fighting

Weidman beat Anderson decisively at striking both times. Leg snapped in half second time. lol

Silva is mostly tricks, once you won't chase him, he's screwed.

Liddell has a wrestling background but he was mainly a striker with good TDD. His lack of proper striking defense was his downfall.

Defensive grappling is always easier to master than offensive grappling. It seems to be the opposite with striking.

 

[TehGwarch]

The world class closed guard guys like Werdum have some promise.

A guard like that will not develop from an MMA gym and he need to have kickboxing talent. Werdum was good with his hands when he applied himself.

Werdum doesn't give a shit about being on his back and nobody wants to be on top of him. lol

If he is sucking lately...I haven't been following for a while but he's done some great things.

 

[jack36767]

He's a kickboxer with decent takedown defense. Like wonderboy, he wins in spite of making some glaring errors (overhooking, shallow underhooks, etc.)

Takedown defense isn't all technique, some people are naturally stable on their feet and others are not. Conor is good overall, he manages to either not get taken down or control the situation and get up.

I used Gus vs Jones as an example of what I recommend.

The Gus fight you keep mentioning was a a fighter having the absolute best fight of his career in Gus... vs a Jon Jones who didn't even fucking train for the fight barely....if you don't think that's the big reason for the q
takedown...lol

Also dropping your has to use the "magical" double underhooks" is a good way to set up a Randleman vs. Crocop knockout...which would be funny

And Conor hasn't fought Edgar or Dos Angos yet...then we'll see about his takedown defense against an opponent who doesn't gas

 

[jack36767]

Don't get me wrong, wrestling is not that hard to counter overall. Double unders, pretty much like Gus vs Jones.

Unless it's in So Cal but I stay out of So Cal, you know that brah.

Lol so wrestling is easy to counter...even high level MMA...and you know this because you have had limited success against non high level opponents...and wouldn't put yourself in a position to do any different..got it

 

[jack36767]

He didn't exactly implement it but generally speaking, against most he has good TDD. Mendes has a good shot, very fast, no doubt.

You cannot complete a double leg on someone who has deep underhooks on you and they can easily hip throw or uchi mata you if you insist.

Most of these fuckers don't know what an uchi mata is, that's my point.

Mendes was up 2 rounds before he got knocked the fuck out. Ringing endorsement I suppose. lol

When I say this...it isn't just me resorting to insults...you are fucking dumb if you don't think that Mendes or Hendricks knows what an Uchi Mata is...even if they call it something different....

And I'm actually not a McGregor hater...but there's a reason he agreed to fight Mendes not Edgar on short notice, and if you're his coach, the general trend of that fight has me extremely worried...just because you happen to win doesn't mean there's a problem

 

[Judoka1532]

I'm the king of pulling up old threads, so my apologies if this annoys anybody. But I don't think bjj or any combat sport will ever stop evolving. I also think it's possible that techniques that have been or will be abandoned at particular points in bjj evolution could resurface down the line. Think about it, we know bjj has greatly evolved, and we know that some techniques are not seen as much as before. Overtime as those fade away, I think it's possible that people will stop training for them and forget some basic techniques and particularly how to defend them. That's when they could possibly re-surface.

I also think we are at a time where bjj has become a lot more mental. Specialists have also started to break apart. Like the death squad and leg locks, or Oleynik and the ezekiel choke. Focus has shifted to the very minute details simply because when 2 guys are well trained, the guy who has perfected his own specialized technique will be forced to use that instead of the run-of-the-mill set ups and subs. That I don't think will ever change. You can always add 1 more step to anything.

Danaher is a good example of a new-age pioneer. If you haven't ever heard him, listen to his stuff man the guy is a mad genius

 

[mataleaos]

I'm the king of pulling up old threads, so my apologies if this annoys anybody. But I don't think bjj or any combat sport will ever stop evolving. I also think it's possible that techniques that have been or will be abandoned at particular points in bjj evolution could resurface down the line. Think about it, we know bjj has greatly evolved, and we know that some techniques are not seen as much as before. Overtime as those fade away, I think it's possible that people will stop training for them and forget some basic techniques and particularly how to defend them. That's when they could possibly re-surface.

I also think we are at a time where bjj has become a lot more mental. Specialists have also started to break apart. Like the death squad and leg locks, or Oleynik and the ezekiel choke. Focus has shifted to the very minute details simply because when 2 guys are well trained, the guy who has perfected his own specialized technique will be forced to use that instead of the run-of-the-mill set ups and subs. That I don't think will ever change. You can always add 1 more step to anything.

Danaher is a good example of a new-age pioneer. If you haven't ever heard him, listen to his stuff man the guy is a mad genius

I think this is a good post.

Besides the ezekiel the other night, we saw Davi Ramos do a rolling kimura to take the back and finish the RNC.

I think that sort of speaks to the specialization. I don't think we see as many general jiu-jitsu things on a regular basis but we do see a lot of really high level jiu-jitsu on a more sporadic basis, because the there are a lot of people with high level specialties in more specific areas. That rolling kimura trap to the back that Davi Ramos used for example is something that's pretty basic in BJJ but for someone to attempt it in MMA they would have to be very comfortable with it. I don't think I've seen anyone use it like that in the UFC since Vagner Rocha fought Cody McKenzie.

So I still think the amount of high level jiu-jitsu in MMA is understated. Because also there are things that we would have considered high level in the late 00's or early 10's that are being done by lots of fighters now. Stuff that would impress us back then is considered more run of-the-mill now.

 

[Coconutwater]

I know that some people believe that UFC 1 proved that traditional martial arts are ineffective in real life. But in reality, all it did was show a hole in traditional martial arts. As UFC's continued, in less than a decade, BJJ was no longer king. Wrestlers were learning how defend submissions. Strikers were learning how to stuff takedowns. So while UFC 1 exposed the fact that most martial arts have no ground game, modern MMA is exposing the fact that BJJ has no stand up game. And that, in my opinion, is a problem.

I remember there was a time where maybe 50% of black belts dreamed of testing themselves in MMA. The Nog bros even ditched the gi for a while. There was a time where guys wanted to represent BJJ as a martial art that was still relevant. But what's the current role of BJJ in MMA? Watching Feijao have a pretty useless guard against OSP tells me. It's supplemental. It's not treated as essential. It's not your rifle. It's not even your side arm. It's your knife. It's like a last resort. A forgotten tool unless the opportunity presents itself.

Even when it's used, it's mostly just the same basic stuff that we've seen for years. Meanwhile, BJJ players are evolving the art at a rapid rate in a sport context. Sitting straight to their butts. Spinning upside down, pulling pants, and tying the gi in knots. I notice that the new BJJ dream isn't to compete in MMA. It's to win medals and open a school.

So all of this leads me to ask, has BJJ stopped evolving for MMA? Is this it? BJJ has reached it's maximum potential as a martial art in MMA? There is nothing else that can be done to improve its effectiveness? It really makes me wonder if BJJ really is the ultimate martial art or if it really is more of a back up plan.

I almost feel like boxing would be a better martial art to learn.

Excellent analogies used, knife and not sidearm.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

I always sort of thought it was more along the lines of BJJ being part of the 101 "core curriculum" of MMA anyway. You've either got to know it, or know how to contend with it.

Boxing is always good to learn, though. Street-wise BJJ will get ya less convictions though

I'd argue that choking someone could land you in jail a lot faster if you have a smart attorney against you. Yikes.

Choking is basically attempted murmer.

 

[rmongler]

I'd argue that choking someone could land you in jail a lot faster if you have a smart attorney against you. Yikes.

Choking is basically attempted murmer.

Such things more or less come down too a question of optics. Too most people, grappling doesn't 'look' as violet as beating someone over the head with your fists; some people don't even really consider it 'fighting' at all to begin with. And that's what would matter in a trial by jury.

 

[Thaijitsu612]

I always sort of thought it was more along the lines of BJJ being part of the 101 "core curriculum" of MMA anyway. You've either got to know it, or know how to contend with it.

Boxing is always good to learn, though. Street-wise BJJ will get ya less convictions though

Why would bjj get you less convictions? In most states punching someone is a misdemeanor while choking them is felony. Any joint lock that resulted in injury would likely be felony as well.

Edit:didn't see this was a necro thread

 

[MaxMMA]

http://www.fightmatrix.com/ufc-records/ufc-fight-outcomes-by-weight-class/

Lol, bjj is as relevent for MMA as it was back in 1993.

The above Link illustrates that a high percentage(roughly 25%) of UFC fights end in submission. And thats just at the highest level of MMA.

How many ammy/regional professional fights have you guys been to? How many have you been in? I don't have any hard statistics, but from what I've experienced first hand, I'm almost certian the percent is even higher.

 

[SummerStriker]

I feel like I’ve seen a lot of fresh / new BJJ in UFC lately. I’m not 100% convinced the best game plan is being used yet, but what do I know. Things do change.