Has BJJ Stopped evolving for MMA?

[Coconutwater]

There are a bunch of guys kicking today... now more than ever, since kickers who used to not want to kick so much for fear of going to the ground are much better on the ground or at least st getting up, also stalling to get up it’s easier now...

Thompson kicking is nothing new, managing distance with kicks isn’t either... wonderboy is quite good st it, but he hasn’t face a relentless offensive grappler, he did beat some good wrestlers/boxers, who like to strike more than wrestle. Maia Colby even Usman type of fighter will always carry problems to this type of fighter...

No doubt a lot more guys are kicking now, IMO, if the sport continues to grow, there should be an uptick in defectors from the striking arts like TKD or Karate who spent enough time to really understand octagon nuances and thus a completely different look to how fights look. Until then, yes, aggressive, smothering fighters with mean doubles will gobble up strikers who haven’t learned when and when not, to execute a given technique.

It’s like submission. At first Royce tapped everyone, then Coleman came in and made it a takedown and ground & pound game which had a degree of expediency to it since it doesn’t give opponents time to breathe. Then strikers learned to sprawl like Pete Williams, then wrestlers learned to strike enough to keep people guessing... Etc...

Right now, there are very few people who can throw a sidekick with 90% correct form, regardless if they have to worry about a takedown or not. A lot of fighters literally don’t have the hip, core flexibility to do so, with the trunk more upright than leaning way back, and thus destroying the very mechanical efficiency the kick needs to work at its best... kind of like getting the right angle on a triangle choke, sure you can tap someone out with a sloppy, square version, but a little angle makes such a big difference in the finishing rate.

 

[Judge]

I know that some people believe that UFC 1 proved that traditional martial arts are ineffective in real life. .

Those are stupid people. It proved BJJ was better than other martial arts.

 

[michi972]

Maia, Ortega, Shoeface

 

[mataleaos]

There is definitely a learning curve, but many have used no-gi Judo with success. Just not very many, which is surprising.

Karo Parisyan used to be my favorite fighter. In hindsight a lot of his throws ended up in scrambles and I think Ronda Rousey was better able to control to fighter after the throw but man...Karo sure had some awesome tosses.

 

[mataleaos]

From my own experience training with MMA fighters, leg locks will be used mostly as a way to distract from getting punched and create a scramble when you're caught on bottom. I'd guess the finish rate will be very low. Not because leg locks don't work, but because the sorts of positions that you use to set up the entanglement entries either

1. Don't come up that often in MMA, like seated butterfly against a standing opponent, or
2. It's smarter to stay on top and strike than to fall back for a leg

Even though I quite like to leg lock when rolling with punches I find about the only entry I consistently hit is going for the far leg in Z guard Craig Jones style. Butterfly just doesn't really happen that much (and when it does it's generally a lot smarter to create space and stand up than try to play guard), and when you're on top in guard striking and passing to strike more are much more reliable ways to do damage, score, and maintain position than going for a leg. If you look at old Pancrase matches where you couldn't strike on the ground you saw a lot more leg locks because the incentive structure was different. Top position is hard to get and so valuable that it just doesn't make much sense to go for the legs from top, and you get far fewer chances to go for them from the bottom than you would in a grappling match.

I never thought about it this way but that makes sense. I guess the very common backstep entries and leg drag entries don't make a ton of sense in MMA when you could just do damage instead.

It will be interesting, I think that leg locks will have to evolve differently for MMA than for most sport BJJ. Butt scooting and double guard pull haven't been widely successful entries yet-I don't know how well modern leg locks will translate into MMA finishes-there was one heel hook in the EBI CJJ championship and that is still a long way from MMA. Super curious to see what Tonon might have in his bag of tricks.

I usually think Danaher's social media posts are very obvious things but this one makes sense to me. I just think the conditions of an MMA fight aren't as conducive to leg locks being the smartest strategy but I don't think the leg locks themselves will have to evolve or change.

"One of the most commonly asked questions I receive runs like this, “I love what the squad does in grappling competitions with leg locks, but would those leg locks work in MMA?” There seems to be an odd conception among many people that leg locks are somehow DIFFERENT from all other grappling techniques insofar as they are workable in grappling, but unworkable in fighting. I never hear people say for example, That arm-bars work in grappling but don’t work in MMA, or Darce strangles, or half guard passes etc etc. Here is a point so important it ought to be written in large bold letters on the wall of every jiu jitsu academy in the world - THE COMBAT EFFECTIVENESS OF ALL THE MAIN MOVES OF JIU JITSU, INCLUDING LEG LOCKS, IS NEVER DETERMINED BY THE MOVES THEMSELVES- THEY ALL WORK WELL - BUT RATHER BY THE COMPETENCE AND CONTEXT IN WHICH THEY ARE EXECUTED. The truth is, ANY jiu jitsu move can result in catastrophic failure if applied incompetently or at the wrong time or on the wrong person. This is just as true of arm bars and strangles as it is of leg locks. Worry less about your technique selection and worry more about your technique execution - do you perform it well? Do you select it at the appropriate time and against an appropriate opponent? Do you make the necessary adjustments to lessen the danger of striking technique being used as you apply it? Do you have a realistic follow up if it should begin to fail? These are the more important questions."

 

[DatCutman]

From my own experience training with MMA fighters, leg locks will be used mostly as a way to distract from getting punched and create a scramble when you're caught on bottom. I'd guess the finish rate will be very low. Not because leg locks don't work, but because the sorts of positions that you use to set up the entanglement entries either

1. Don't come up that often in MMA, like seated butterfly against a standing opponent, or
2. It's smarter to stay on top and strike than to fall back for a leg

Even though I quite like to leg lock when rolling with punches I find about the only entry I consistently hit is going for the far leg in Z guard Craig Jones style. Butterfly just doesn't really happen that much (and when it does it's generally a lot smarter to create space and stand up than try to play guard), and when you're on top in guard striking and passing to strike more are much more reliable ways to do damage, score, and maintain position than going for a leg. If you look at old Pancrase matches where you couldn't strike on the ground you saw a lot more leg locks because the incentive structure was different. Top position is hard to get and so valuable that it just doesn't make much sense to go for the legs from top, and you get far fewer chances to go for them from the bottom than you would in a grappling match.

Leglocks have to be viewed as a supplement rather than a total solution. I think you're spot on when you say leglocks will distract from getting punched and help create scrambles; the fear of the leglocks sets up your guard, or your guard sets up your leglocks. Having just one or the other is kind of a bad solution. Likewise, I believe that striking/passing sets up leglocks on top, and the fear of leglocks create crappy guards that you can pass/strike through. It's no different than striking someone to open up a sub, or threatening a sub to move into a better position to strike. It turns grappling into a network, where each node of the network is strengthened by the other interconnected nodes. I think leglocks are unique as they significantly change the safety of the guard position for both individuals; and generally speaking, the principle ways to enter involve having the inside position, which is generally helpful when passing or striking anyway. Ultimately, a leg game in MMA adds another layer of complexity, which is how the grappler wins in MMA; to throw on layer after layer of technical complexity until the opponent finally hits a layer they don't understand or can't answer.

The only real unique thing about leg attacks are how many standing entries there are, and how they are moderately safer than other flying subs. I'd love to see someone just chasing their opponent around the ring, spamming scissors and imanari rolls until they hit a leg lock. Sounds hilarious.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Leglocks have to be viewed as a supplement rather than a total solution. I think you're spot on when you say leglocks will distract from getting punched and help create scrambles; the fear of the leglocks sets up your guard, or your guard sets up your leglocks. Having just one or the other is kind of a bad solution. Likewise, I believe that striking/passing sets up leglocks on top, and the fear of leglocks create crappy guards that you can pass/strike through. It's no different than striking someone to open up a sub, or threatening a sub to move into a better position to strike. It turns grappling into a network, where each node of the network is strengthened by the other interconnected nodes. I think leglocks are unique as they significantly change the safety of the guard position for both individuals; and generally speaking, the principle ways to enter involve having the inside position, which is generally helpful when passing or striking anyway. Ultimately, a leg game in MMA adds another layer of complexity, which is how the grappler wins in MMA; to throw on layer after layer of technical complexity until the opponent finally hits a layer they don't understand or can't answer.

The only real unique thing about leg attacks are how many standing entries there are, and how they are moderately safer than other flying subs. I'd love to see someone just chasing their opponent around the ring, spamming scissors and imanari rolls until they hit a leg lock. Sounds hilarious.

Did you see Ferguson - Barboza? Or almost any late career Joe Lauzon fight?

 

[rmongler]

You know in the past i've memed about how the best single leg finish of all time is swining into a leg lock; well in the Jacare vs. Gastelum fight, the one time Jacare managed to finish a single and get Gastelum down onto the ground while they were both fresh... was by swinging into slx.

 

[bobjones777]

with 4oz gloves and a taped fist, punching your way out is the answer to a lot of problems. Simple as that. Were it not for hand reinforcement, MMA fights would look very different.

 

[SummerStriker]

Just saw what looked like a legit elevator sweep from halfguard by Marquez. It was pretty sweet.

This fight is kinda interesting. Marquez’s BJJ is on point.

lol he hit a standing Kimura sweep to escape the clinch. Just awesome

 

[freakroor]

Mighty Mouse vs borg

Also, bjj is a defensive/reactive martial art. Wrestling and striking are more offensive/proactive. Therefore if your bjj is lacking you will have a major defensive hole.