Helio Gracie's Black Belt

[MarcoRugeAss]

Yeah I was taking that book as the source. I will consider your criticism of that source in the future.

As far as not studying Judo at all, that seems pretty unlikely as what Maeda taught Carlos was Basically Just Judo. Obviously things grew apart over the years, but it's pretty clear that both BJJ and modern Judo come from the same common ancestor. They have a lot in common -- the judogi as a uniform, the aversion to leg locks, same type of randori, elimination of strikes in general training, etc.

Especially early on, there was an effort to just get the Gracies to officially adopt the Judo rules and join up there instead of just doing their own thing. So it seems they were generally recognized as having the same type of experience. I don't think they would need a mysterious Japanese Judoka (other than Maeda) in the picture. What they were doing just from Maeda alone could easily have counted.

The common root of BJJ and modern Judo had no such aversion to leg locks. Google Ashi Garami for instance.

 

[Ryo]

Yeah I was taking that book as the source. I will consider your criticism of that source in the future.

As far as not studying Judo at all, that seems pretty unlikely as what Maeda taught Carlos was Basically Just Judo. Obviously things grew apart over the years, but it's pretty clear that both BJJ and modern Judo come from the same common ancestor. They have a lot in common -- the judogi as a uniform, the aversion to leg locks, same type of randori, elimination of strikes in general training, etc.

Especially early on, there was an effort to just get the Gracies to officially adopt the Judo rules and join up there instead of just doing their own thing. So it seems they were generally recognized as having the same type of experience. I don't think they would need a mysterious Japanese Judoka (other than Maeda) in the picture. What they were doing just from Maeda alone could easily have counted.

This. It's VERY unlikely that Helio never studied any judo. I mean that's what they were taught in the beginning anyway. It's the basis of their style. Just watch some old Helio and Carlos demonstrations. Looks pretty much the same as the judo of the time. Pretty tachiwaza heavy actually if one were to analyze it.

Add to that the fact that kimura thought Helio was a judoka. And... Why would he not? Perfectly reasonable assumption. Helio wore the judogi, employed judo techniques... Do you think kimura would have really thought this cocky Brazilian wearing that outfit jigoro Kano invented... Who also used judo newaza techniques was some other obscure style?

No i don't believe that Helio held any rank in judo. It should be relatively simple to find out actually. The Kodakan keeps quite meticulous records.

Helio and Carlos's style is quite judo.

 

[Balto]

The common root of BJJ and modern Judo had no such aversion to leg locks. Google Ashi Garami for instance.

Ashi Garami was banned in Judo in 1916. That predates Maeda teaching Carlos by a couple of years.

So when the Gracies first learned Judo, leg locks had already been banned.

 

[MarcoRugeAss]

It should be relatively simple to find out actually. The Kodakan keeps quite meticulous records.

As I stated earlier, the Kodokan has expunged Maeda from their official record, including the record of people (like Carlos Gracie) who he promoted. If Carlos promoted Helio, that record is now sealed.

"It is the position of the Kodokan that this person (Maeda) no longer appears in the official history of this institution" - official response from [email protected]

You might try this exercise again but ask for records on Carlos and Helio Gracie

International Department
TEL: 03-3818-4172, FAX: 03-3814-2918
e-mail: [email protected]

 

[BJJ_Rage]

what carlos did was judo, helio? yeah 90% was basically just judo too, may be he change somethings, its not weird for people to modify techniques and adpt them to each one... everybody does it all the time, although, most people do not change the name of the system for the little twicks everyone has. We have to consider that Helio might have given newaza a stronger focus, much more than what maeda taught carlos, so he might have thought he really created a style, I really dont think helio knew about kosen judo. I dont think helio created anything knew, but he changed the approach to fighting, gave ground work a strong focus. That was at the begging, I do believe though, that the vale tudo training has to be awareded to them (gracies), I dont think maeda was teaching carlos guard work with strikers involved and other vale tudo techinques, that probably came through trial and error..

 

[lechien]

Ashi Garami was banned in Judo in 1916. That predates Maeda teaching Carlos by a couple of years.

So when the Gracies first learned Judo, leg locks had already been banned.

But the Gracies lost a team challenge agains the fadda lineage via leg lock.
That is where the Gracie's started their aversions vs leg lock.
Something about suburban techniques.

 

[lts5025]

Yeah I was taking that book as the source. I will consider your criticism of that source in the future.

As far as not studying Judo at all, that seems pretty unlikely as what Maeda taught Carlos was Basically Just Judo. Obviously things grew apart over the years, but it's pretty clear that both BJJ and modern Judo come from the same common ancestor. They have a lot in common -- the judogi as a uniform, the aversion to leg locks, same type of randori, elimination of strikes in general training, etc.

Especially early on, there was an effort to just get the Gracies to officially adopt the Judo rules and join up there instead of just doing their own thing. So it seems they were generally recognized as having the same type of experience. I don't think they would need a mysterious Japanese Judoka (other than Maeda) in the picture. What they were doing just from Maeda alone could easily have counted.

Let me clarify.

Yes, it's readily apparent that what Maeda taught Carlos was Basically Just Judo. However, Carlos only studied under Maeda from roughly 1917-1921. Helio doesn't start training because he's too frail until about 1928, when he's 16. What modifications has Carlos made in those 7 years? What modifications does Helio make because of his frailties? Where does the split between judo and BJJ occur? Does Maeda create the split when he's fighting catch wrestlers in carnivals? Does Carlos create the split when he starts training his brothers? Does Helio create the split when he invents leverage?

None of that really matters, though, as the point I was attempting to make is that Helio's training, however many techniques came from judo, would never have been recognized by the Kodokan as judo. If I go to a Danzan Ryu class or Sambo and learn O Goshi and Seoi Nage, am I learning judo or am I learning something else? Unless I go to the Kodokan for batsugun, I'm not getting ranked in judo even though I know some judo techniques and wear a gi.

Helio's only teacher was Carlos, so he was learning whatever Carlos was teaching him, not the Kodokan syllabus. Hell, Helio himself claimed that judo didn't arrive in Brazil until the 1950's, so he wouldn't have deigned to study it. Helio studied Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, whatever that means, and that's all he ever studied. He never learned judo for the sake of learning judo, so thus wouldn't have held rank in it. That's the point I was trying to make.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

As I stated earlier, the Kodokan has expunged Maeda from their official record, including the record of people (like Carlos Gracie) who he promoted. If Carlos promoted Helio, that record is now sealed.

"It is the position of the Kodokan that this person (Maeda) no longer appears in the official history of this institution" - official response from [email protected]

You might try this exercise again but ask for records on Carlos and Helio Gracie

International Department
TEL: 03-3818-4172, FAX: 03-3814-2918
e-mail: [email protected]

why was maeda erased from the kodokan records?

 

[lts5025]

why was maeda erased from the kodokan records?

Apparently for prizefighting. It goes against Kano's ideals for judo.

 

[MarcoRugeAss]

Ashi Garami was banned in Judo in 1916. That predates Maeda teaching Carlos by a couple of years.

So when the Gracies first learned Judo, leg locks had already been banned.

True, but Maeda cared little for the Kodokan's prohibitions at that time. It's also unclear if he ever claimed or intended to teach Judo within the boundaries Kano put on it, rather than his own accumulated Vale Tudo style. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu has very distinct atemi-waza that does not appear in any accounting of Kodokan techniques, banned or otherwise, or in any kata. No one has ever claimed that those techniques are a Gracie invention, and Rorion has said that his father never claimed to have invented those techniques. They are not part of Judo, but they are part of what Maeda was teaching. Maeda was not teaching official Kodokan Judo, or calling what he taught "Judo"; you can see that from the fact that Luiz Fran

 

[BJJ_Rage]

True, but Maeda cared little for the Kodokan's prohibitions at that time. It's also unclear if he ever claimed or intended to teach Judo within the boundaries Kano put on it, rather than his own accumulated Vale Tudo style. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu has very distinct atemi-waza that does not appear in any accounting of Kodokan techniques, banned or otherwise, or in any kata. No one has ever claimed that those techniques are a Gracie invention, and Rorion has said that his father never claimed to have invented those techniques. They are not part of Judo, but they are part of what Maeda was teaching. Maeda was not teaching official Kodokan Judo, or calling what he taught "Judo"; you can see that from the fact that Luiz Fran

 

[MarcoRugeAss]

I dont think maeda was teaching carlos guard work with strikers involved and other vale tudo techinques, that probably came through trial and error..

These are the four banned techniques of Kodokan Judo:

Ashi-garami (knee reap, twisting knee lock)
Kani-basami (scissor takedown)
Kawazu-gake (terminal leg-entanglement throw)
and Do-Jime (closed guard; wrestling body-scissor)

There's no reason for Maeda not to have used any technique he knew as long as it was useful in making a living as a vale tudo fighter.

 

[Ryo]

Apparently for prizefighting. It goes against Kano's ideals for judo.

I don't see how that makes any sense at all. I never seen any evidence that Maeda was persecuted in any way by the Kodokan. In fact they even created a memorial in his honor. The memorial still stands today. Kano's son who was the head of the Kodokan for over thirty years even attended the ceremony. Judo has a long history of fighting. The Kodokan didn't expunge kimura when he fought professionally... Nor did they expunge Hidehiko Yoshida or a lot of other guys... Can't think of a single reason why they would do that to Maeda.

 

[lechien]

'Even in Japan, judo and jujutsu were not considered separate disciplines at that time. Indeed, it was not until 1925 that there started to be clear differentiation of the names in Japan,[10] and outside Japan, judo and jujutsu were not completely separated until the 1950s.[11]
'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo

 

[MarcoRugeAss]

may be thats why the gracies call it jiu jitsu... If im not mistaken, kano created judo from jjj, may be, maeda was teaching his own style of jiu jitsu to the gracies, could that be right?

He was probably teaching a mix of official Kodokan Judo, supplemental known (banned) techniques, elements of Handa dojo ne waza not officially absorbed into the Kodokan curriculum, and the bag of tricks the Kodokan used only for inter-school challenges. And any technique or strategy he picked up along the way/invented to save his ass in the ring.

Also, remember that Maeda was part of a number of Ex-Kodokan challenge fighters who traveled and trained together in various combinations; guys like Gunji Koizumi, Akitaro Ono, Yukio Tani, Sadakazu Uyenishi, and Taro Miyake, as well as Maeda, all had connections either to Handa or the Tenabe-era Kodokan, and traveled the world fighting and/or challenge wrestling all comers. A lot of know-how likely was shared between these men.

 

[MarcoRugeAss]

I don't see how that makes any sense at all. I never seen any evidence that Maeda was persecuted in any way by the Kodokan. In fact they even created a memorial in his honor. The memorial still stands today. Kano's son who was the head of the Kodokan for over thirty years even attended the ceremony. Judo has a long history of fighting. The Kodokan didn't expunge kimura when he fought professionally... Nor did they expunge Hidehiko Yoshida or a lot of other guys... Can't think of a single reason why they would do that to Maeda.

They promoted him posthumously too. But now he's expunged. It's not clear why that happened, but it is clear that Maeda didn't respect the Kodokan's rule on the matter (whether they enforced it or not)

 

[Ryo]

They promoted him posthumously too. But now he's expunged. It's not clear why that happened, but it is clear that Maeda didn't respect the Kodokan's rule on the matter (whether they enforced it or not)

They literally never really cared. Tons of judoka fought.

Can't see why one of judo's greatest ambassadors would be expunged from the official record. Especially considering they still honor him. Kimura never gave a fuck about what the Kodokan thought...

Btw in Maeda's biography it's made pretty clear that he taught Kodokan judo and that his ties to the Kodokan were still pretty good. I mean his entire reason for leaving japan was to spread judo. I don't believe in all this super secret totally different judo that he taught. Not at all. Pretty obvious in my mind considering he literally taught thousands of students all over the world.... Why don't we see bjjish styles of judo all over the place. What he taught was the judo of the time which happen to be very strong in newaza. Remember that Helio fought with several judoka in his time and drew with many of them. Ground fighting was very popular in judo at the time. However judo moves with the rules of the times so we see change.

 

[MarcoRugeAss]

They literally never really cared. Tons of judoka fought.

Can't see why one of judo's greatest ambassadors would be expunged from the official record. Especially considering they still honor him. Kimura never gave a fuck about what the Kodokan thought...

Btw in Maeda's biography it's made pretty clear that he taught Kodokan judo and that his ties to the Kodokan were still pretty good. I mean his entire reason for leaving japan was to spread judo. I don't believe in all this super secret totally different judo that he taught. Not at all. Pretty obvious in my mind considering he literally taught thousands of students all over the world.... Why don't we see bjjish styles of judo all over the place. What he taught was the judo of the time which happen to be very strong in newaza. Remember that Helio fought with several judoka in his time and drew with many of them. Ground fighting was very popular in judo at the time. However judo moves with the rules of the times so we see change.

He definitely taught Kodokan Judo while traveling with Tomita, and opened schools like the one on the site now occupied by Lincon Center in NYC. If there are any surviving lineages of his besides the ones in Brazil, they are not known (at least to me) so it doesn;t make a lot of sense to ask if they are/were BJJish (because they're extinct and can't be examined). Brazil was the last stop on his years long journey, after his fighting career was complete. The Gracie branch of his lineage says he called what he taught "Jiu-Jitsu" and the Franca branch seems to say the same thing. If you have evidence that Maeda called what he taught in Brazil at the end of his career "Judo" I'd be very interested to see it.

Where does the Atemi in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu come from if the Gracies didn't introduce it? The Kodokan? If it does then it is indeed "secret Judo" as it has nothing to do with official Kodokan technique; if it doesn't then it was introduced by Maeda (or someone unknown that taught it to him).

 

[Rod1]

As I stated earlier, the Kodokan has expunged Maeda from their official record, including the record of people (like Carlos Gracie) who he promoted. If Carlos promoted Helio, that record is now sealed.

"It is the position of the Kodokan that this person (Maeda) no longer appears in the official history of this institution" - official response from [email protected]

You might try this exercise again but ask for records on Carlos and Helio Gracie

International Department
TEL: 03-3818-4172, FAX: 03-3814-2918
e-mail: [email protected]

If i recall correctly a crapload of records were lost during the war.

 

[nhbfan8080]

Let me clarify.

Yes, it's readily apparent that what Maeda taught Carlos was Basically Just Judo. However, Carlos only studied under Maeda from roughly 1917-1921. Helio doesn't start training because he's too frail until about 1928, when he's 16. What modifications has Carlos made in those 7 years? What modifications does Helio make because of his frailties? Where does the split between judo and BJJ occur? Does Maeda create the split when he's fighting catch wrestlers in carnivals? Does Carlos create the split when he starts training his brothers? Does Helio create the split when he invents leverage?
........

Was Gracie JJ really developed in house all in the family right after a scant 4yr tutelage under Maeda? Does it make sense that the Gracie cousins and uncles rolled with each other and basically built up GJJ just like that?