Helio Gracie's Black Belt

Was Gracie JJ really developed in house all in the family right after a scant 4yr tutelage under Maeda? Does it make sense that the Gracie cousins and uncles rolled with each other and basically built up GJJ just like that?
Also, don't forget that Maeda's other students seem to have been practicing the same art as the Gracies, at least as far as the grappling went. When the Franca/Fadda branch came into contact with the Gracies for the first time, they were doing essentially the same thing minus a greater emphasis on the same leglock techniques as in the Gracie system.
 
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He definitely taught Kodokan Judo while traveling with Tomita, and opened schools like the one on the site now occupied by Lincon Center in NYC. If there are any surviving lineages of his besides the ones in Brazil, they are not known (at least to me) so it doesn;t make a lot of sense to ask if they are/were BJJish (because they're extinct and can't be examined). Brazil was the last stop on his years long journey, after his fighting career was complete. The Gracie branch of his lineage says he called what he taught "Jiu-Jitsu" and the Franca branch seems to say the same thing. If you have evidence that Maeda called what he taught in Brazil at the end of his career "Judo" I'd be very interested to see it.

Where does the Atemi in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu come from if the Gracies didn't introduce it? The Kodokan? If it does then it is indeed "secret Judo" as it has nothing to do with official Kodokan technique; if it doesn't then it was introduced by Maeda (or someone unknown that taught it to him).

It's much more simple than what you're making it out to be. As you know, judo and jiu-jitsu were used interchangeably during that time. It means the same thing. If Maeda used the word jiu-jitsu he was referring to Kano's jiu-jitsu (Judo). He never studied anything else. He was a judo ambassador. That was his job. Wouldn't really make sense to be promoting anything else. And he didn't. The Gracie's took what they learned and kept it seperate from judo because they chose to. Clearly Carlos and his brothers had a vision of doing their own thing.

The striking aspect? You mean the crappy TMA stuff you see in gracie self defense? They probably made that up. Not very hard to do if you have an imagination. Now if you mean the robot knee stomp to clinch....well they probably made that up from trial and error in challenge fights. I'm not sure why you think this has to come from somewhere. I mean it's pretty logical that they could figure some things out in several challenge fights. I don't really thing the Gracie's crappy striking is worth mentioning though anyway.
 
The striking aspect? You mean the crappy TMA stuff you see in gracie self defense? They probably made that up. Not very hard to do if you have an imagination. Now if you mean the robot knee stomp to clinch....well they probably made that up from trial and error in challenge fights. I'm not sure why you think this has to come from somewhere. I mean it's pretty logical that they could figure some things out in several challenge fights. I don't really thing the Gracie's crappy striking is worth mentioning though anyway.
Let me see if I'm following your argument correctly:
GJJ striking is of no value in MMA => mentioning GJJ striking can be of no value in an historical discussion of techniques and where they came from because it's "crappy".

Here's an exercise for you: how many vale tudo victories can you list in which Helio won with a submission, and how many can you list in which he won with strikes? I for one can only find a single victory by submission in his known record; the rest are W by strikes. GJJ vale tudo strategy was primarily a striking strategy with rnc after forcing an opponent belly-down with strikes being the only submission actually sought with any frequency. They had a great deal of confidence in their striking system when combined with their positional grappling, and with good reason: that was how they won the vast majority of their fights.

I already discussed my conversation with Rorion, and his statement that the striking techniques in the Gracie system were already present when his father learned it. They did not invent the striking aspect of their system; Maeda introduced it to them.
 
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This interview with Red Belt Armando Weidt should interest you. it starts towards the bottom of the mag at about page 51 or 52.


http://www.budointernationalvideo.com/images/revistas/usa48.pdf

Cool find. I had not seen that before.

Major points I took away relevant to this thread:
- Guys who wanted to compete cross trained in Judo regularly. Judo was the only way to compete before the first BJJ federation was established.
- He thinks Carlson was better than Rickson (at least in Vale Tudo)
- Reconfirming that there was no such thing as a BJJ black belt back then before the BJJ federation. Instructors at the Gracie Academy just wore dark blue.
 
Ashi Garami was banned in Judo in 1916. That predates Maeda teaching Carlos by a couple of years.

So when the Gracies first learned Judo, leg locks had already been banned.

Not sure that would have made much difference in the short run. Touching the leg in tachi-waza (ie standing throws) has been banned in judo for about five years, and many clubs (such as mine) still teach it (morote gari, all the drop kata-guruma versions where you touch the leg and which were standard judo until the ban).

In our club, and many others, the leg touches are still allowed in randori - it'll probably be a generation before they're no longer common in judo except for IJF shia. That's mainly because all the instructors (such as myself) learned and practiced those techniques for decades, and aren't going to stop just because some muddle heads in the IJF decide they aren't photogenic techniques. We occaisionally get visitors who complain, but most (including a couple visiting Olympians) go a long with it without comment - in fact, most say they're always happy to be able to use the old techniques.

For that matter, we still allow Kami basami (sissor throw as well) - and that's been banned for a long time.

I doubt Maeda would have cared any more about the banning of leg locks back then than we do about banning leg touches today. Things like that take a new generation of teachers to filter through.
 
Not sure that would have made much difference in the short run. Touching the leg in tachi-waza (ie standing throws) has been banned in judo for about five years, and many clubs (such as mine) still teach it (morote gari, all the drop kata-guruma versions where you touch the leg and which were standard judo until the ban).

In our club, and many others, the leg touches are still allowed in randori - it'll probably be a generation before they're no longer common in judo except for IJF shia. That's mainly because all the instructors (such as myself) learned and practiced those techniques for decades, and aren't going to stop just because some muddle heads in the IJF decide they aren't photogenic techniques. We occaisionally get visitors who complain, but most (including a couple visiting Olympians) go a long with it without comment - in fact, most say they're always happy to be able to use the old techniques.

For that matter, we still allow Kami basami (sissor throw as well) - and that's been banned for a long time.

I doubt Maeda would have cared any more about the banning of leg locks back then than we do about banning leg touches today. Things like that take a new generation of teachers to filter through.

From what I read about the ban, it was just a general agreement to ban due to injury risk. Like 20 years before, wrist locks, ankle locks, finger locks, etc. had all been banned for the same reason. In 1925, Judo had switched to arm locks only. So it seems like a trend that was happening throughout a whole generation.

This was my source on the Judo rules: http://judoinfo.com/rules2.htm
 
In 1925, Judo had switched to arm locks only. So it seems like a trend that was happening throughout a whole generation.

This was my source on the Judo rules: http://judoinfo.com/rules2.htm
And yet everyone in Judo uses the Americana shoulder-lock with impunity and calls it "Udegarami" when Udegarami was reformed to (legally) attack the elbow instead. Some rules no one cares about.
 
And yet everyone in Judo uses the Americana shoulder-lock with impunity and calls it "Udegarami" when Udegarami was reformed to (legally) attack the elbow instead. Some rules no one cares about.

Actually when I learned it in Judo, they were pretty specific about doing it in a way that primarily attacked the elbow instead. It wasn't just a rules thing either. They truly believed it was a more efficient lock that way. They made a big deal about how you can get a tap a lot quicker by attacking the elbow, whereas with the shoulder you have to twist the arm a lot farther on most people.
 
:icon_chee
Actually when I learned it in Judo, they were pretty specific about doing it in a way that primarily attacked the elbow instead. It wasn't just a rules thing either. They truly believed it was a more efficient lock that way. They made a big deal about how you can get a tap a lot quicker by attacking the elbow, whereas with the shoulder you have to twist the arm a lot farther on most people.
I agree that attacking the elbow can be smart, and that many people perform Udegarami in the correct manner, but people win medals attacking the shoulder all the time and no one complains. Even though it's banned.
 
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Hmmm... I base my opinion off of the fact that I trained and competed in judo for about 13 years or so. I've also trained jiu-jitsu for about four years now on and off.... Well... That and common sense...

You can't learn to grapple without grappling. It's about proper instruction and mat time. That's it.

Do you swallow every scrap of bullshit people say? I suppose you believe aliens are abducting people and ass raping them as well? Or maybe that mr Kung fu guy meditated on a mountain for forty years and discovered the secrets of beating guys up?
i disagree, i never used to grapple at all but i watched mma a lot. my brother had been doing bjj for a while and when we grappled i got a flying armbar in the first ten seconds. i can guarantee no one ever taught me it and i had never practiced it before.
 
There is a line of evidence that Helio was promoted by George Gracie who himself received his BB off Japanese practitioners. Carlos, if he did learn from Maeda, only learned some self defence. George Gracie and Dinato Pires were also instructors at the original academy and had much more knowledge. George often trained with other Japanese 'Kano Jiu-Jitsu' players and was graded this way I believe.
 
Helio obviously trained hard. Does this look like some frail wimp who couldn't roll?

7osRg.jpg
Another one of those Gracie myths, ‘Helio was a frail tiny man, so weak, 80lbs going up against 230lbs monsters!’
Pull the other one
 
Helio Gracie was a delicate flower of a man, prone to fainting spells and intense menorrhoea. He only managed to not be overwhelmed by the brute strength of all the men that wanted to dominate him by his ingenious discovery of leverage.

He also never had sex without the intention of procreation. The Gracies are batshit crazy and always making bullshit up about their history. "Because a Gracie said it," particularly from Helio's line, gives me cause to be sceptical of the claim more than trust it.
Invented leverage, that is one of the best ones. Haha
 
from a Carlson Gracie interview:

"Then I found out that Rorion said that he was a national champion for 20 years and had never lost and that he had invented the Gracie diet. He even said that my dad was just a fucking assistant of his and that it was Helio Gracie who brought Jiu-Jitsu to Brazil. Lies over lies! When I found out, I was so mad!"

http://www.bjjee.com/interview/carl...om-helios-his-relationship-with-rorion-ibjjf/

If information comes from Helio or his side of the family, it’s pretty much lies.

It information comes from Carlos’ side of the family, it’s 70% truth, IMO.
 
Interestingly enough, Kimura weighed between 170 and 180 pounds (he was weighed regularly as part of judo). If he was 80 pounds heavier than Helio, then Helio only weighed 100 pounds.

Or maybe the weight difference was exaggerated somewhat.


As for the original post, as someone else pointed out, anyone can make their own style. Not only the Gracies, but Kano and Ueshiba did it, as did the guys who started sambo, TKD and so on. The hard part is being good enough that your style catches on.
 
Invented leverage, that is one of the best ones. Haha

Not really, its quite believable. First he invented a time machine, then he went back into history and taught it to people like Archimedes. Seems pretty straightforward, happens all the time in shows like Star Trek.
 
Not really, its quite believable. First he invented a time machine, then he went back into history and taught it to people like Archimedes. Seems pretty straightforward, happens all the time in shows like Star Trek.
Well you’ve made me look quite the fool sir.
 
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