House Democrat: I Would Trade the Wall for a DACA Bill— We Can Tear It Down in a Couple of Years

[essie]

Ok, so anyone would be allowed to come in at any time.

Would the new arrivals be allowed to vote in US elections? Would they be allowed to collect government benefits?

Do I still have my magic wand? If so I'd make it so there were no presidents and we wouldn't need government benefits because everything would be perfect. See, this is a pointless discussion because the original premise is unlikely. My point when I said it won't happen is that I recognize my views as extreme and thus I support things that are reigned in, digestible iterations of my thoughts.

 

[waiguoren]

Do I still have my magic wand? If so I'd make it so there were no presidents and we wouldn't need government benefits because everything would be perfect. See, this is a pointless discussion because the original premise is unlikely. My point when I said it won't happen is that I recognize my views as extreme and thus I support things that are reigned in, digestible iterations of my thoughts.

In your ideal world, there would be no borders between nations. In practice, you say, this is impossible (why?) so instead you support "digestible iterations" of this ideal world, including tearing down all barriers on the US-Mexico border.

Here is an example illustrating why I find your perspective confusing. In your ideal world, "we wouldn't need government benefits because everything would be perfect." Then why not eliminate Social Security at the first opportunity? Would that not be a "digestible iteration"? What is the definition of "digetible iteration"? Would tearing down all of Israel's border walls be a "digestible iteration"?

Forgive me if I am digging too much. It is rare that I encounter a person who admits to supporting "open borders", and I am genuinely curious. Also, thank you for being patient.

 

[essie]

In your ideal world, there would be no borders between nations. In practice, you say, this is impossible (why?) so instead you support "digestible iterations" of this ideal world, including tearing down all barriers on the US-Mexico border.

Here is an example illustrating why I find your perspective confusing. In your ideal world, "we wouldn't need government benefits because everything would be perfect." Then why not eliminate Social Security at the first opportunity? Would that not be a "digestible iteration"? What is the definition of "digetible iteration"? Would tearing down all of Israel's border walls be a "digestible iteration"?

Forgive me if I am digging too much. It is rare that I encounter a person who admits to supporting "open borders", and I am genuinely curious. Also, thank you for being patient.

See the strange thing to me about this conversation is it feels like people on the right are always saying democrats and liberals are pro open borders. But I have found that when I say "yep" those same people react incredulously. I'm not saying this is you because I'm not familiar enough with your postings outside of your prediction thread where I posted that Trump will for sure be re elected.

Your first question is why open borders are impossible and my answer is because the left wing establishment of the world isn't left enough to actually support open borders. Democrats in America for example are for border control, just in a much less pronounced way. So it is impossible because in order for open borders to be a reality they need to be opened by people in power and i don't believe anyone could get to power using an open border platform. But again, I am a lifelong democrat (and proud) and don't say that to be like grrr democrats are so soft. I recognize that my beliefs are very far left.

As for the social security issue I was being silly by saying if I had a magic wand I would make things perfect which is to say there would be peace, immortality, ice cream, and love and maybe nothing else. Stupid, but yes. So the lack of social security isn't really an extension of that because what i was saying was just stupid. I am very much for big government. But I think you know that there are times when certain beliefs we have contradict others. I was getting around your question about if people coming to the united states would get benefits (i would hope so if it is my magic wand).

The problem with the way I think is that with a lot of global issues the toothpaste is already out of the tube. Maybe I am talking about a utopia before corruption and evil. So it is pointless. Like, as an example, I would be in favor of removing all guns. Like with my magic wand, again. But now I think that if we enacted very strict gun control it would obviously be problem because so many people have guns already. I don't know if this makes sense but maybe this example helps. Sorry.

 

[7437]

Certain crops can be automated but alot can't. The machine were damaging certain fruits with the wrong pressure to pick them. Maybe in the future machines will be capable.

Also picking fruit or vegetables don't takes much skill or education So you're $50 $60 won't work or be realistic.

So again, if you were one of the millions uneducated or skilled trade worker. How much would you want to get paid to pick vegetables in 100+ degree weather?

Its absolutely reasonable. If thats wat it takes to get workers. Prices would go up for sure.

If the only option for every farmer in the USA was to pay 50 bucks an hour or sell the farm, most would pay the money. Paying employees is a part of business. Its not always cheap.

I alsoo think anyne who hires illegals should be jailed and their business seized as a criminal enterprise.

 

[kenetics]

Its absolutely reasonable. If thats wat it takes to get workers. Prices would go up for sure.

If the only option for every farmer in the USA was to pay 50 bucks an hour or sell the farm, most would pay the money. Paying employees is a part of business. Its not always cheap.

I alsoo think anyne who hires illegals should be jailed and their business seized as a criminal enterprise.

To bad the people at the top love money to much lol. They will always find away to get cheap labor for big profits .

 

[waiguoren]

Your first question is why open borders are impossible and my answer is because the left wing establishment of the world isn't left enough to actually support open borders. Democrats in America for example are for border control, just in a much less pronounced way. So it is impossible because in order for open borders to be a reality they need to be opened by people in power and i don't believe anyone could get to power using an open border platform

I am most interested in what you would do if you had power. Assuming you were the president and you had a dominant congressional majority, your party could pass and sign laws having the effect of removing the US-Mexico border in a very short time. Is it fair to say that you would take that opportunity? Assuming yes, would you not be concerned about, for example, fugitives from Mexico and Central/South America coming across the border? What about people carrying rare infectious diseases?

people coming to the united states would get benefits (i would hope so if it is my magic wand).

In an open borders scenario, the current US population (approximately 325 million) would increase dramatically as poor immigrants emigrated en masse to the US.

In the US, 60% of income taxes are paid by the top 5% of earners (Source, Table 10), yet the median income of illegal immigrants has been measured to be far lower than the overall median (Source, "Other Major Findings"). Wouldn't your policy have the effect of exacerbating already-existing benefits shortfalls (Shortfall 1, Shortfall 2)?

 

[essie]

I am most interested in what you would do if you had power. Assuming you were the president and you had a dominant congressional majority, your party could pass and sign laws having the effect of removing the US-Mexico border in a very short time. Is it fair to say that you would take that opportunity? Assuming yes, would you not be concerned about, for example, fugitives from Mexico and Central/South America coming across the border? What about people carrying rare infectious diseases?



In an open borders scenario, the current US population (approximately 325 million) would increase dramatically as poor immigrants emigrated en masse to the US.

In the US, 60% of income taxes are paid by the top 5% of earners (Source, Table 10), yet the incomes of illegal immigrants have been measured to be far lower than the median (Source, "Other Major Findings"). Wouldn't your policy have the effect of exacerbating already-existing benefits shortfalls (Shortfall 1, Shortfall 2)?

I'm not sure what I would do. I know I wouldn't build a wall. Why?

 

[waiguoren]

I'm not sure what I would do. I know I wouldn't build a wall. Why?

This conversation started because I found it strange that you would take pleasure in the thought of tearing down barriers on the US-Mexico border. I assumed that your strong desire was rooted in a concrete vision for US border policy. But now you are saying you do not even know if you would tear the currently existing border barriers down?

 

[Amerikuracana]

That would be really stupid. If it puts even a dent in illegal immigration, that' a good thing. Either party HAS to think that, because it's common sense. You can say it's not worth the money etc all day.. But once it's up, it stays.

 

[essie]

This conversation started because I found it strange that you would take pleasure in the thought of tearing down barriers on the US-Mexico border. I assumed that your strong desire was rooted in a concrete vision for US border policy. But now you are saying you do not even know if you would tear the currently existing border barriers down?

When did I ever say I wouldn't tear down the currently existing border barrier? When you first asked me I said of course. It seems like you are trying to find an argument here and it isn't going to happen. If a wall is built I would be delighted to see it torn down. That's as clear as I can be on the issue.

 

[waiguoren]

When did I ever say I wouldn't tear down the currently existing border barrier?

I was referring to this comment:

I'm not sure what I would do. I know I wouldn't build a wall. Why?

I apologize if I misunderstood. So you would remove all existing barriers on the US-Mexico border.

In your scenario, fugitives and those carrying communicable diseases could travel freely to the US. Would that be a problem?

 

[InternetHero]

That would be really stupid. If it puts even a dent in illegal immigration, that' a good thing. Either party HAS to think that, because it's common sense. You can say it's not worth the money etc all day.. But once it's up, it stays.

A lot of political officiandos, left and right, think their demographic powers will lead them to ultimate victory, at which point they can humiliate the vanquished left/right foes and do everything "their way" for the justice of whoever they happen to identify with and like.

 

[essie]

I was referring to this comment:



I apologize if I misunderstood. So you would remove all existing barriers on the US-Mexico border.

In your scenario, fugitives and those carrying communicable diseases could travel freely to the US. Would that be a problem?

It would be as much of a problem as fugitives and those with communicable diseases living in America already.

 

[waiguoren]

It would be as much of a problem as fugitives and those with communicable diseases living in America already.

As much of a problem? It would be more of a problem, right? If there are X criminals living in the US, and we allow Y more to come across the border, don't we now have X+Y criminals? Ditto for those with communicable diseases.

 

[essie]

By definition, it would be more of a problem, right? If there are X criminals living in the US, and we allow Y more to come across the border, don't we now have X+Y criminals? Ditto for those with communicable diseases.

There would be more of everything yes. May I ask why you are so interested in my views? Lol.

 

[waiguoren]

There would be more of everything yes. May I ask why you are so interested in my views? Lol.

Of course you may ask.

One of my goals in life is to challenge my most fervently held beliefs. I'm interested in your views because you expressed a view (in support of "open borders") that is nearly the opposite of my personal view. I advocate for much stronger border controls than we currently have. I am critical of President Trump for not being tough enough on the border.

 

[essie]

Of course you may ask.

One of my goals in life is to challenge my most fervently held beliefs. I'm interested in your views because you expressed a view (in support of "open borders") that is nearly the opposite of my personal view. I advocate for much stronger border controls than we currently have. I am critical of President Trump for not being tough enough on the border.

Oh okay, well that is an admirable goal. I don't know how much progress we have made though lol.

 

[waiguoren]

Oh okay, well that is an admirable goal. I don't know how much progress we have made though lol.

I guess I still don't really understand your view. You're allowing that more crime and disease would be brought to our country in your scenario. I don't see why it's rational to make a change (removing the southern border) that would bring such problems. If you were advocating some form of vetting of immigrants I could understand better, but then you would be advocating for a border implicitly.

 

[essie]

I guess I still don't really understand your view. You're allowing that more crime and disease would be brought to our country in your scenario. I don't see why it's rational to make a change (removing the southern border) that would bring such problems. If you were advocating some form of vetting of immigrants I could understand better, but then you would be advocating for a border implicitly.

You're still arguing against an idealistic point of view that i've already admitted isn't realistic. That is what confuses me. But this started by you being confused as to why I would be happy with Trump's wall being torn down. Surely you can understand that now?

 

[waiguoren]

You're still arguing against an idealistic point of view that i've already admitted isn't realistic. That is what confuses me. But this started by you being confused as to why I would be happy with Trump's wall being torn down. Surely you can understand that now?

What immigration policy would you like our government to carry out right now, specifically with regard to the southern border?