How appliacble is fencing to real sword fighting?

Volund said:
Move around him, time his swings, stick the long pointy sword into the eyeslot in his visor / under the armpit when he swings / the back of his kneecap if you get behind him. Pretty much anywhere there isn't plate armor.
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Typically you wouldn't use a rapier for a fully armored opponent, it's just too risky and difficult, thats why you have things like maces. Rapiers only started to become popular as the use of armor declined.
 
If you're going back in time, modern fencing would probably not translate well. Just consider that modern fencing is not about killing! It's a different mindset between scoring points and having your point stick in a guy's guts or throat.

The further back you go, the more likely you are to meet armored warriors. Fencing came out of civilian duelling as opposed to one on one combat in the battlefield.

Even kendo is a poor substitute. This may be the closest we have to Japanese style sword fighting;



In modern day bladed combat, i think these guys would still be better.

 
i have to disagree i love kali but if i had to swordfight i would rather have an saber or epee than a machete. The speed and range is just so much better.
 
ironbismark said:
i have to disagree i love kali but if i had to swordfight i would rather have an saber or epee than a machete. The speed and range is just so much better.
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He said, "In modern day bladed combat, i think these guys would still be better." How often do people fight with sabers or epee IRL? Machetes are used to hack vegetation and do a variety of chores in the Philippines. Machetes are also a common side weapon in poorer armies. The skills also translate really well to knife fighting.
 
Rapiers didn't become popular because the use of armor declined. They became popular as metallurgy allowed them to exist. Rapiers weren't used against people in full plate because they didn't exist when full plate was in use.

I think if some fencing students went back in time to the medieval times, they would cry a lot over the sanitation and living conditions. That aside... they don't train to fight people with shields. Shields will mess your day up if all you have is a Rapier. Fencing masters could do alright if they got to time warp with their sword... students I think would just get rocked.

Medieval martial arts were practiced by a bunch of illiterates... so we don't have as much information about their skills or methods. That doesn't mean they didn't know what they were doing. One of the neat things I've heard about was them using the large two handed swords as you would a quarterstaff. Say one hand on the handle and the other half way up the blade. If you look at a lot of the two handed swords, the sharp part of the blade doesn't reach the hilt. Plus they're wearing gauntlets. Anyone that played TMNT games knows the bo-staff is the best weapon... now imagine it was a giant blade on one end. :icon_chee
 
Keul said:
He said, "In modern day bladed combat, i think these guys would still be better." How often do people fight with sabers or epee IRL? Machetes are used to hack vegetation and do a variety of chores in the Philippines. Machetes are also a common side weapon in poorer armies. The skills also translate really well to knife fighting.
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No he said modern fencing with its rules and competition wouldn't translate well into real killing. I have done kali and fencing and disagree. The point of Fencing is to touch with the point of your blade while not getting touched I think that would translate rather well though not perfectly. The speed and distance of a rapier is just too big of an advantage over machete's and similar small saber like weapons. With enough of a skill difference you could of course overcome this but fencer's generally had no problem stabbing someone in the hand, arms and legs and backing up for an hour till the other person bled out. With armor though it is not the correct weapon.
 
ironbismark said:
No he said modern fencing with its rules and competition wouldn't translate well into real killing. I have done kali and fencing and disagree. The point of Fencing is to touch with the point of your blade while not getting touched I think that would translate rather well though not perfectly. The speed and distance of a rapier is just too big of an advantage over machete's and similar small saber like weapons. With enough of a skill difference you could of course overcome this but fencer's generally had no problem stabbing someone in the hand, arms and legs and backing up for an hour till the other person bled out. With armor though it is not the correct weapon.
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Concede the point about fencing vs kali.

How bout fencing vs a Napoleonic-era infantry officer? They have no armor but do have a nasty heavy blade.
 
DS614 said:
Rapiers didn't become popular because the use of armor declined. They became popular as metallurgy allowed them to exist. Rapiers weren't used against people in full plate because they didn't exist when full plate was in use.
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Wiki's not the best, but here it goes;
Rapier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and it's predecessor, the espada ropera
Espada ropera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They were evolved as civilian weapons for duelling, self defense and as fashion statements for the rich.
 
The swords your talking about are cavalry sabers and not really meant for dueling they are too curved to stab with so the rapier would still have an advantage. I know that there are enough fencers who prefer dueling saber's too rapier's though if that's what you mean. The dueling saber is more versatile in that it has an edge and a slight curve so you can slash with it and it still has a straight enough blade you can also stab and only sacrifices a small amount of speed and length.
 
Well I got the first part right. I was confused about when plate mail was popular and in use. I thought it was being used back in the medieval times. Turns out it was being made around the same time rapiers were.

I need to get less of my history lessons from movies... :eek:
 
Fencing used to be practiced in Europe to prepare aristocrats for duels.
Duels were a common thing in 19th century France and fencing teachers were called "Ma
 
Matt4786 said:
I always wondered how you could stop a fully armored knight with a battleaxe using a rapier.

Fencing doesn't seem physical enough. I'm sure ancient badasses were crushing heads with shields, and kicking people in the balls to set up the kill. Fencing only relies on the sword, not the other aspects of melee combat.
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A fast precision stab to the armors weak point is better than swinging a big axe around hitting nothing and getting stab through the neck.
 
Inquisitus said:
If you're going back in time, modern fencing would probably not translate well. Just consider that modern fencing is not about killing! It's a different mindset between scoring points and having your point stick in a guy's guts or throat.

The further back you go, the more likely you are to meet armored warriors. Fencing came out of civilian duelling as opposed to one on one combat in the battlefield.

Even kendo is a poor substitute. This may be the closest we have to Japanese style sword fighting;



In modern day bladed combat, i think these guys would still be better.

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No way. Those soilder guys would get owned
 
Actually I think there is an application for fencing in modern combat and it would be for using a bayonet in the military. The Russians are well known for their skill with the bayonet and their bayonet fighting derives from fencing. The close quarter combat experienced in Iraq saw bayonet charges used for the first time in many years. Fencing would translate well to fighting with a bayonet because it is more suited to thrusting motions and not cutting.
 
I think in most practical situations the only advantages that sword fighting will give you is with make shift long/medium range weapons, timing, footwork, range and speed. That being said, you should still aspire to learn kendo, fencing, escrima and arnis as well as possible.

It is my personal belief that knife fighting should be where most time learning weapons is spent, as the range development is great, even for boxing/kickboxing.
 
esotamoc said:
I have spoken to a witness of a few duels. He acted as a second for one of them. happened in the 50s
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That German university dueling doesn't count, if that's what you're talking about.
 
Doughbelly said:
That German university dueling doesn't count, if that's what you're talking about.
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No, I think that German Mensur dueling is still being practiced. I was talking about underground first blood duelling over points of honour, insults etc.
 
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