How is the A-level athlete "myth" debunked? Ngannou earned title shot with 4 years training.

[eiyuu]

He was 32 when he had his first MMA bout and was 36 when he had his 2nd bout. And he never lost to an absolute scrub (speaking by HW standards of course).

Also, so you think Westbrook is an A-level athlete? Why is it that people always bring up some random football player failing at this or that as proof that an A-level athlete couldn't just walk into MMA's HW division and do very well or dominate. A 36 year old man coming off a 4 year layoff losing to Travis Browne in the 3rd round is NOT something to be embarrassed about.

We're having a discussion. So it's only reasonable to bring up examples pro and con in this discussion.

There have been "A level athletes" trying their hand at MMA. Only a handful have been successful. Even fewer have won a title (if you consider Brock Lesnar "A level")

Athleticism only gets you so far. Being able to fight and have the right mindset for it, is the deciding factor. It's better to be an athletic fighter than to be an athlete who fights.

As far as age goes, the man never let himself go, so he was always in good shape. Age wasn't a factor. Plus, he was a longtime BJJ practitioner. If any "A Level" athlete was ready to kick ass in MMA it was him.

 

[8100]

Wrong. It does not happens as often as in fighting, for the reasons i mentioned above. But it does happen plenty.

Antonio Gates of the Chargers never played a down of football in College. He was a basketball player-not good enough to be in the NBA. Then he became a pretty decent tight end.

This example has been brought up before and it's one of the only examples people can use. Also, it's important to note that Gates was a 2 sport athlete and wanted to initially play football when he went to college. It's not like he was some random novice who didn't know the sport at all.

Originally, Gates enrolled at Michigan State University wanting to play football under then-coach Nick Saban as well as basketball under coach Tom Izzo. Upon enrolling, he learned that Saban wanted him to play only football.[5] Gates then chose to pursue playing basketball by transferring to Eastern Michigan University. He played there part of a season before transferring to the College of the Sequoias, a junior college in California, to focus on academics. Recruited by Stan Heath, Gates transferred to Kent State University in northeastern Ohio.[6]

 

[8100]

We're having a discussion. So it's only reasonable to bring up examples pro and con in this discussion.

There have been "A level athletes" trying their hand at MMA. Only a handful have been successful. Even fewer have won a title (if you consider Brock Lesnar "A level")

Athleticism only gets you so far. Being able to fight and have the right mindset for it, is the deciding factor. It's better to be an athletic fighter than to be an athlete who fights.

As far as age goes, the man never let himself go, so he was always in good shape. Age wasn't a factor. Plus, he was a longtime BJJ practitioner. If any "A Level" athlete was ready to kick ass in MMA it was him.

What makes him an A-level athlete? You're just saying it as if it's true. Also, he was no longer able to compete at a high level in football and retired before starting his MMA career so that goes to show that he was NOT what he was in his prime.

I agree it's reasonable to bring up examples pro and con but when your examples have serious flaws then those need to be pointed out, I did this, and you didn't address the issues I brought up. You're claiming Westbrook was an A-level athlete and was still in his prime in at the age of 36 when he lost, which of course you cannot prove whatsoever, if he were still in his prime he would have likely never retired.

 

[GrantB13]

It's obvious his cardio is bad, and outside of punching power what else does he really have? You're effectively arguing that an A level HW just needs to be able to punch. Not much of a claim.

 

[opie]

I disagree - Comier is an A level athlete.
This pic really proves it - It reminds me a looking at Marshall Faulk / Barry Sanders / Emmit Smith / Randy Moss /
Those guys HOF players did not have impressive physiques what so ever. Being a A Level athlete isnt based solely on your apperance.

im in no way saying it is based on appearance. i am saying anyone with athleticism and talent is playing real sports, because that is where the money is.

mma is a fallback sport. nobody wants to get punched in the head for almost zero money.

 

[chuckleknuckle]

Bj Penn won the Worlds in 3 years, so almost 5 years to fail to win a world title doesn't impress me.

Also your Messi comparison is moronic. Fights can end with one punch. If a soccer match could end with passing the ball past Messi just once, or tackling him just once, 5 years training would be enough for anyone to be able to do that.

Very few 205lb plus men in the world actually train mma, certainly very very few ever try and fight mma, and an even more tiny minority train full time and try and fight for a ufc title.

Since soccer has no weight classes, quite literally millions of people worldwide have tried to be pro soccer players through the school and club system.

 

[Burundanga]

Being an A-level athlete also requires A-level training, dedication, and complete understanding of the athletic pursuit in question.

Ngannou may be somewhat uniquely athletic for his size but he falls way short in the other areas.

 

[Andy Anderson]

Ngannous is a weight class above most HWs. Make HW the 245 division, he won't be as successful

 

[The Moloko man]

Ngannou did NOT box for 9 years, his skill level clearly shows that. Also, with just a quick search of his wiki page is shows he boxed for a year as a youngster then stopped because of an injury. Then moved to France at 26 to pursue the sport. So where is this 9 years coming from?

He got to France at 26 and we know he has been training MMA for less then 5 years so your timeline is clearly off. To add to that when he got to France people pushed him away from boxing, and we saw why a few nights ago.

The division IS bad, the fact that Ngannou got to a title shot proves that. People tried to take him down and no one was able to exploit his nonexistent ground game. Once he was taken down we saw he had no clue what he was doing, an absolute novice. It was an embarrassment for the sport that he made it to a title shot.

I agree Ngannou beat 2 chinny fighters but Stipe beat those same 2 guys, Arlovski went on a 5 fight losing streak and wasn’t cut, that shows how laughable the division is. Heck Ngannou beat Reem in a more impressive fashion, Stipe got dropped.

You’re calling Ngannou “amateur hour” and I agree, in fact most of the division is amateur hour, is old, or have glass chins and that’s the exact point I’m trying to make and you just made it for me. I get why people are mad that Ngannou was over hyped but it’s not the UFC’s fault that Stipe won’t promote himself.

Lastly, Cormier was obviously an A-level athlete his career speaks for itself. Undefeated at HW and his only 2 losses in MMA to Jon Jones. MMA is his second sport and he started later in age. Check out his Olympic level accomplishments in wrestling which are much higher then most MMA fighters period. Check out his Wikipedia article.

Allegedly he used to be able to run a 4.3 40 (can’t confirm this) and was jacked in his youth. Oh and let’s not forget his slams. Jones, Hendo, Gus, and Barnett and Barnett is 250lbs while DC is 5’9”.

He has boxed for 9 years....when he was in between work, homeless for a short period in France and when he had a illness are the only times he didn't box(read and tran slate the french articles)....but all the other time yes he did....I can't help stipe's defense made him look like shit....dude has a jab, knows how to double/triple up his punches well ane counters good but stipe was never in range or flat foot enough to establish it

He was literally pushed away from boxing because the politics would make it take forever to get anywhere...those were his people's words

Stipe beat Arlovski when he was on a six fight win streak and Ngannou beat him on a 3 fight skid....and what's this MMAath about ngannous win over reem being more impressive ? Apples to oranges.......if you want to get semantical reem fought a completely different fight against stipe....he fought tactly and was elusive to a purpose....he literally made stipe chase him around the cage then turned around and caught him coming in....against ngannou he literally stood in the pocket and banged like a scrub....
And if know anything about MMA ko'ING a guy cold in full guard who has won ADCC trials is more impressive...it just doesn't happen in general

I said Ngannou was "amateur hour" not the division....reem is more skilled, rothwell is more skilled, Barnett is more skilled, JDS is more skilled, Cain is more skilled, blaydes is more silled, hell even volkov....those are actual well rounded fighters still at the top of their game or still coming into their own as fighters....reem and arlovski are the only glass chins there and the rest of the guys have only gotten better with age
So I can't help that since stipe has come into his prime he is that much better than them when it comes to fight time....

And lastly just answer the question whether you think stipe is/was an A level athlete...I never went against you saying cormier was/is...I asked you a question...also cormier ran a 4.3....by his own account he ran 4.5 (I made a thread about it over a year ago)

The guy is/was a high level Greco-Roman and has nice slams...8m not going to try and negate these feats by saying "Barnett had a broken hand and didn't attempt to defend", or that "Hendo was a small man himself" or "say so what? Stipe just doesn't go for slams cause he's not a wrestling mark like DC" or "stipe is much more agile and quicker with his feetvand handsbhe doesnt have to do anything else unlike cormier whonhas to make up for physical differences" like some others might say,
Instead I'll just bring up the fact that stipe has beat all the heavyweights cormier wouldnt fight in dominant fashion, placed at nationals in division 1 wrestling, played 2 division 1 sports, received major interest FROM MLB teams, won cleveland golden gloves and went to national golden gloves with 8 months training and started later in MMA than cormier while doing it part time too yet was signed to the UFC within a year
....also he moves like a big cat despite 6'4 and 250 pounds
As seen her...http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/lets-talk-about-stipes-head-movement-against-ngannou.3698015/

He matched Brawn for brawn, speed for speed and bested a physical specimen in ngannou from the get go....after his stamina went stipe bobbing and weaving most of his punches....after that he completely out skilled him when his athletic burst was gone

Now just tell me do you believe they have/had a similar level of athleticism?....literally every scouting report of stipe before he came to the ufc refered to him as a "natural athlete" but I want to hear what you believe

Also you keep bringin up that stipe was only "able to decision him"
Considering it was a 50-44 fight with some media scoring it a 50-42 blowout
how can you make a moral victory for anything out of that?

Regardless of finishing ngannou, stipe put on an absolute clinic and best fight of his life....he out classed him and out physical'd him from bell to bell.... Stipe put on a defensive clinic the division has never seen before, he almost finished him twice on the ground, took him down six times and made ngannou look totally helpless...

I mean just last week everybody was saying rounded ngannou really was but didn't hav3 a chance to show it...he's been training MMA for half a decade...many guys have got title fights and have been well rounded from that time, so ngannou must have been even better since he was physical specimen to boot...Dewey is a amazing bozing coach and Vinny who has been his grappling coach lately said his ground was top shelf
So In a nutshell that was match wasnt about ngannou being just a physical guy that proved thats all it took to run through the division... but instead it was the culmination of prime stipe just being levels above EVERYONE right now and ngannou receiving some favorable matchups/ having the stars aligned to be able to avoid the more dangerous fighters for his style...it's not anything indicative of the division as a whole

The only thing ngannou proved for the "A level" myth is that if a physical specimen can get favorable matchups, build a hype train, and have a good chin and will power he'll survive but get blown out in a dominant thrashing by the champ and others

 

[ramair455]

im in no way saying it is based on appearance. i am saying anyone with athleticism and talent is playing real sports, because that is where the money is.

mma is a fallback sport. nobody wants to get punched in the head for almost zero money.

True - but I can see DC being a defensive linebacker 5'10 220lbs, he just really excelled in wrestling at a young age and didnt get seduced by the NFL dream $$$

 

[opie]

True - but I can see DC being a defensive linebacker 5'10 220lbs, he just really excelled in wrestling at a young age and didnt get seduced by the NFL dream $$$

yeah that i can agree with more or less.

although he might not be fast enough. all those big ass dudes in the nfl still are fast runners somehow.

 

[daniel san]

Three things:

1. HW division is weak
2. Ngannou is not an “A level athlete”. Does he have great technique? No. We know he has power but he’s lacking in everything else
3. It’s HW. If you can throw a strike, you can knock out anyone. If Ngannou was a LW he would of course not seen the same success

And obviously you can’t compare MMA with a team sport. In football you can make a mistake and have 89 minutes to redeem yourself. In MMA you can make a mistake, lose the fight and get bashed on by Sherdoggers for never actually being any good.

 

[ramair455]

Well, I remember him saying some time ago that he ran a 4.5 40 - thats a decent time for a NFL linebacker in the combines.

 

[nevernamed]

Wrong. It does not happens as often as in fighting, for the reasons i mentioned above. But it does happen plenty.

Antonio Gates of the Chargers never played a down of football in College. He was a basketball player-not good enough to be in the NBA. Then he became a pretty decent tight end.

really then, list a few of these examples then. I call bullshit on that.

 

[The Moloko man]

im in no way saying it is based on appearance. i am saying anyone with athleticism and talent is playing real sports, because that is where the money is.

mma is a fallback sport. nobody wants to get punched in the head for almost zero money.

All the A- level and talented olympic, world champs,NCAA national champs, pan american champs, European champs in wrestling, judo and international kickboxing go to MMA

And it's especially true for the international athletes since there is no NFL to play for physical specimens not in the USA...hence why mma is so internationally diverse

 

[storeybuckle]

Define an “A-level athlete”?

You inspired me to make a thread about this!

 

[smellmyfarts]

What's this supposed to prove exactly? The fact is making it to the UFC HW belt and making it to the NFL are 2 different levels. The UFC HW division is a joke.

Also, Okoye had college experience it's not like he just came to America and got signed to a team. He was an amazing talent.

One thing I do want to mention is that people always immediately go to football or basketball when trying to disprove A-level athlete's as if we're only focusing on those 2 sports.

It's supposed to prove that high level athletes with mediocre technique have came out of nowhere to dominate ball sports that are loaded with these "A-level athletes" that nerds on the Interwebs are always talking about too.

Okoye went in the second round of the NFL draft after 2 years of playing organized football. His technique and fundamentals were worse than your typical pop warner RB, yet he destroyed people that had been playing the game since they were children with pure athletic ability.

Freaks exist in every sport, but one thing that people that have never competed or trained in a combat sport seem to not understand is that fighting requires far less natural athletic ability than most sports. It's far more mental and technique based than something like football or basketball. All these kids that think some guy like Lebron james could come into a combat sport and dominate because the competition level is less are fucking delusional. Lebron James could quit basketball today and devote his life to MMA, and after 3 years of training he would get absolutely fucking murdered by an over the hill gate keeper a fraction his size like or Chael Sonen or Tito Ortiz.

As someone that wrestled for 13 years that was also a pretty decent football player and a high level track and field guy, I can tell you that I have had my ass handed to me by guys that sucked at literally every sport accept wrestling. People that have never done sports like wrestling, boxing BJJ etc.......they don't understand that it takes a lot more than being able to dunk a basketball to be good at these sports. One of those things is being tough. Guys like DC, Stipe, or John Jones are tough in a way that normal people can't fathom. These guys make commercial fisherman and loggers seem like pussies. Their will and determination is just insane compared to the average dude.

 

[The Moloko man]

This is not true - culture plays a big role in the participation of African Americans in those sports.

I think he's just being sarcastic about everybody complaining about the SJW joke that they believe about instutionalized racism and invisible dog whitless againts blacks...I think

The NFL was 70% white/hispanic til the late 80's earlier 90's

Whites/hispanic participating less and blacks participating more(for whatever reasons social or otherwise) in those sports in general are what have changed...the statistics prove it

The MLB overwhelmingly white/Hispanic cause they love the sport and aspire to play

Certain races seem to be better suited physically to play certain position, but when there is a widespread change of player composition demographics in a sport...we shouldnt look so superficially just at the surface and say its cause a certain race was finally not held back by racism...that just wouldn't capture the socioeconomic truths

True, this why there isn't more whites and mexicans in the nba.

Very true bro

 

[eiyuu]

What makes him an A-level athlete? You're just saying it as if it's true. Also, he was no longer able to compete at a high level in football and retired before starting his MMA career so that goes to show that he was NOT what he was in his prime.

I agree it's reasonable to bring up examples pro and con but when your examples have serious flaws then those need to be pointed out, I did this, and you didn't address the issues I brought up. You're claiming Westbrook was an A-level athlete and was still in his prime in at the age of 36 when he lost, which of course you cannot prove whatsoever, if he were still in his prime he would have likely never retired.

So NFL players are NOT A-level athletes?

 

[The Moloko man]

Lol LeBron was raised in a violent ghetto, sleeping in random people's houses his mom would leave him at. I'm pretty sure he swung a few times growing up in that environment.

Lol its the dark cuck!


Then LeBrons ghetto ass would be this guy

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjATegQIDxAB&usg=AOvVaw36ciB0_D1mn5evudNuXieX