How much did all the embarrassing K-1 losses to "amateurs" hurt the sport...

[jtwarwagon4life]

except for the fact that both were two big roided gorillas,but Sapp was two inches taller and 40 lbs heavier,who breaked the rules in both hoost fights

Lesnar had a good Wrestling background,but the fact that he outstriked Couture having no stand up experience and ground and pounded with ease a BJJ black belt(mir) and choked a BJJ purble belt with good wrestling background(carwin) is also not a good look,this is my point

None of this qualifies as a "bad look" at all and isn't remotely comparable to Sapp beating Hoost twice.

Couture sucked at stand up and had no prior background, Mir's having blackbelt has nothing to do with being able to defend ground and pound, and Carwin's having a purple belt is about as meaningless as any credential could possibly be. And even if they had had the greatest stand up and grappling pedigrees in the world, they were beat in MMA, by an athletic phenom, with an outstanding combat sports background. Hoost was beaten in a kickboxing bout by a football player.

There is no comparison.

 

[AbeRudder]

By this line of thinking I should take seriously all the UFC fighters who have claimed to fancy their odds against Floyd Mayweather or boxing's heavyweight champion of the moment? Get real. These sort of "anything can happen" scenarios matter in kickboxing, and to a lesser extent in MMA, because those sports have lousy talents pools and therefore lousy champions.

It happens in lots of sports. Sangmanee was taken to a draw by Han Zihao, Petboonchu was knocked down by Greg Wootton, Anuwat lost a bunch of times to foreigners etc. Soccer is the most competitive sport in the world and in pretty much every major international tournament you get small countries with players that couldn't make it in any major league upsetting the all star teams.

 

[Mafanofe]

None of this qualifies as a "bad look" at all and isn't remotely comparable to Sapp beating Hoost twice.

Couture sucked at stand up and had no prior background, Mir's having blackbelt has nothing to do with being able to defend ground and pound, and Carwin's having a purple belt is about as meaningless as any credential could possibly be. And even if they had had the greatest stand up and grappling pedigrees in the world, they were beat in MMA, by an athletic phenom, with an outstanding combat sports background. Hoost was beaten in a kickboxing bout by a football player.

There is no comparison.

having a bjj black belt haves a lot to do with defending ground and pound and there is an universe of examples about it,but some of the famous ones

-Werdum Upsets Fedor

-Sonnen vs Silva one

-Brandao vs Bermudez



yeah,it was a bad thing that Hoost was beaten twice,but you have to consider that hoost was like a original LHW,where Sapp was like a mosterweight and broke some rules to do it,but not excuses at all,shit happens sometimes

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

It happens in lots of sports. Sangmanee was taken to a draw by Han Zihao, Petboonchu was knocked down by Greg Wootton, Anuwat lost a bunch of times to foreigners etc. Soccer is the most competitive sport in the world and in pretty much every major international tournament you get small countries with players that couldn't make it in any major league upsetting the all star teams.

These are upsets but that isn't what's happening here. "Anything can happen" but everything does seem to happen an awful lot when kickboxers fight "amateurs" from other combat sports.

A great soccer team might lose to a crappy soccer team every once and a while. But at least they're still a soccer team, they have some measure of skill and experience which makes the outcome not impossible. And since great soccer teams almost always beat crappy soccer teams, you can dismiss it as a "fluke" or an "anything can happen" case. But here we have people from different sports besting kickboxing greats at their own sport on a fairly regular basis. As far as I can tell this isn't common place in soccer for a great soccer team to be beat by a rugby team or for a great boxer or wrestler to be beat by an MMA fighter fresh out the gate, but this is not uncommon in kickboxing.

This isn't just a case which can be diagnosed as a fluke, because the MMA fighters or whoever seem to be able to beat great kickboxers with more regularity than the crappy kickboxers can. In some cases they seem to be better kickboxers than the kickboxers.

This makes you question the level of relative talent of other combat sports to kickboxing in a way that a mere upset would not.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

having a bjj black belt haves a lot to do with defending ground and pound and there is an universe of examples about it,but some of the famous ones

-Werdum Upsets Fedor

-Sonnen vs Silva one

-Brandao vs Bermudez

No it doesn't. There is no ground and pound in BJJ. It is in no way a requirement that in order to become a black belt or great competitor, you must know how to defend yourself from strikes. That is a very MMA specific skill.

The fact that a few fighters have been able to capitalize on the over zealousness of their opponent's doesn't mean anything. Some BJJ practitioners believe so much in their ability to submit someone from off their back that they neglect defensive posture and positioning or just play on the bottom for too long and then get beat up as a result.

 

[Mafanofe]

No it doesn't. There is no ground and pound in BJJ. It is in no way a requirement that in order to become a black belt or great competitor, you must know how to defend yourself from strikes. That is a very MMA specific skill.

The fact that a few fighters have been able to capitalize on the over zealousness of their opponent's doesn't mean anything. Some BJJ practitioners believe so much in their ability to submit someone from off their back that they neglect defensive posture and positioning or just play on the bottom for too long and then get beat up as a result.

´
there isnt,but BJJ is a good tool for it

BJJ was always close to MMA and with the evolution that the sport had made it in a good tool on the attack or defense,ground or standing up,

any good BJJ school is always related with MMA and how to incorpore it on MMA bouts,it includes training and capitalizing on ground and pound mistakes also

its not all about how to Submit people or defend submissions,it is about how to handle your and opponents body in variate situations with the learned fundamentals

 

[AbeRudder]

These are upsets but that isn't what's happening here.

A great soccer team might lose to a crappy soccer team every once and a while. But at least they're still a soccer team, they have some measure of skill and experience which makes the outcome not impossible. And since great soccer teams almost always beat crappy soccer teams, you can dismiss it as a "fluke" or an "anything can happen" case. But here we have people from different sports besting kickboxing greats at their own sport on a fairly regular basis. As far as I can tell this isn't common place in soccer for a great soccer team to be beat by a rugby team or for a great boxer or wrestler to be beat by an MMA fighter fresh out the gate, but this is not uncommon in kickboxing.

This isn't just a case which can be diagnosed as a fluke, because the MMA fighters or whoever seem to be able to beat great kickboxers with more regularity than the crappy kickboxers can. In some cases they seem to be better kickboxers than the kickboxers.

This makes you question the level of relative talent of other combat sports to kickboxing in a way that a mere upset would not.

MMA is a good base for kickboxing in the same way wrestling or bjj are good for MMA. MMA fighters kickbox regularly in the gym and MMA stand up is pretty similar to kickboxing. Most mma fighters don't do well though, they might pull off the odd upset here and there but in terms of consistent success how many of them do well? Kid had a losing record, JZ Cavalcante went 0-2, Igor and Don Frye went 0-1. Reem did well but he really dedicated himself to kickboxing and has been training with great kickboxers his whole life, same with Moose who trained at Golden Glory if i remember correctly. Kickboxing is also 3 rounds where the fighters fight frequently and often in tournaments, the nature of sport lends itself to more unpredictable outcomes than boxing where the 12 rounds generally lead to the better fighter winning in the long run. Not that i'm saying kickboxing has a comparable level of talent compared to boxing or mma....

 

[axion]

its not me who is crossing over the forum defend shitty threads on a part of the forum you dont even post

I don't which forum I'm in, never check. I don't really post anywhere, buddy, you're the one scrambling to defend K-1. Truth is, K-1 fighters get beaten often by people they should, on paper, dominate.

why i would point out Sapp losses when the guy haves a negative record?

his record speak for itself

Abidi's record speaks for itself, and yet he still KO'd Aerts, twice.

 

[axion]

having a bjj black belt haves a lot to do with defending ground and pound and there is an universe of examples about it,but some of the famous ones

-Werdum Upsets Fedor

-Sonnen vs Silva one

-Brandao vs Bermudez

You said you don't watch MMA.

 

[Mafanofe]

You said you don't watch MMA.

i dont watch,but as a combat sports fan i know some things

 

[Mafanofe]

I don't which forum I'm in, never check. I don't really post anywhere, buddy, you're the one scrambling to defend K-1. Truth is, K-1 fighters get beaten often by people they should, on paper, dominate.



Abidi's record speaks for itself, and yet he still KO'd Aerts, twice.

scrambling to defend K-1?

you are the one that is hating here,i just dont like when people throw words without having another sides of a history

Aibidi KO´d Aerts twice and got TKOed-KOed 10 times after that

Buster Douglas also KOed tyson

Gabriel Gonzaga KOed Cro Cop

Patrick Smith KOed Hug

it dont take the merit of any of them,so move on with it,and it dont mean that these guys were or would ever be better than the people they KOed

Aibidi record speaks for itself,you are right,especially on the part after that he was 0-7(5 ko) against good competitors

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

any good BJJ school is always related with MMA and how to incorpore it on MMA bouts,it includes training and capitalizing on ground and pound mistakes also

No. Tons of BJJ schools couldn't care less about MMA.

 

[UJustGotChaeld]

talking about Embarrasing,A pro wrestler was MMA champion \

"ooh,but he was a roided monster"

No, he was an actual beast of a wrestler who happened to do pro wrestling.

Look at this bum pro wrestler who won Boxing gold.

 

[Mafanofe]

No. Tons of BJJ schools couldn't care less about MMA.

believe me bro,most of the best BJJ schools dont care care about IBJJF and abu Dhabi ones tournaments but also there is a lot of attention for MMA,it is a big deal on the sport

i live near a Team Nog training center and a Gracie Barra one,the best MMA talents of the state and the region go to train in these places also,and its pretty much the same on national level or on the USA.

Big MMA teams have lots of legit BJJ instructors on their camps,it is a good piece of the game,not as much like wrestling and striking,but it still a big thing

 

[axion]

you are the one that is hating here,i just dont like when people throw words without having another sides of a history

I don't hate, I have all sides to the story, I've been following for nearly 20 years and watched all the fights you're talking about live.

Buster Douglas also KOed tyson

Gabriel Gonzaga KOed Cro Cop

Patrick Smith KOed Hug

Twice? In a row?

it dont take the merit of any of them,so move on with it,and it dont mean that these guys were or would ever be better than the people they KOed

No luck and yet no merit for the win? What is it then? You just ignore fights when you don't like the result?

 

[Mafanofe]

I don't hate, I have all sides to the story, I've been following for nearly 20 years and watched all the fights you're talking about live.



Twice? In a row?



No luck and yet no merit for the win? What is it then? You just ignore fights when you don't like the result?

lol i have to admit that you try hard twisting my words...

yeah,twice in a row,and what it takes from Aerts who was 3 time k-1 gp champ and 3 times runner up who had a record of 22 wins and 20 losses agains K-1 WGP champs and runner ups and was on the top of competition even when he passed his prime?

i am not taking away the merit of the guys who got upset knock out losses,and not taking the merit of the fighters who upset them,you dont understood

i am saying that you can discredit a legacy of a long time kickboxing champ just because he lost two fights to the same guy,no matter what happened

i dont ignore fights because of the result,a result is a result and it dont changes,so you are lacking on understand what i am saying doing this poor twist of words


you are doing a poor job trying to be argumentative,have to do better mate....

 

[axion]

Kid had a losing record

Speaking of Kid... he came from pure wrestling, fought at 125 but face one of the best ever, Masato at 155 giving up 4 inches height and not only took him to a majority decision but knocked him down in the process. Oh, also took some big nut shots in the process.

That's pretty crazy when you think about it.

 

[axion]

lol i have to admit that you try hard twisting my words...

yeah,twice in a row,and what it takes from Aerts who was 3 time k-1 gp champ and 3 times runner up who had a record of 22 wins and 20 losses agains K-1 WGP champs and runner ups and was on the top of competition even when he passed his prime?

i am not taking away the merit of the guys who got upset knock out losses,and not taking the merit of the fighters who upset them,you dont understood

i am saying that you can discredit a legacy of a long time kickboxing champ just because he lost two fights to the same guy,no matter what happened

i dont ignore fights because of the result,a result is a result and it dont changes,so you are lacking on understand what i am saying doing this poor twist of words


you are doing a poor job trying to be argumentative,have to do better mate....

Yeah I really don't understand what you're trying say here.

But anyway, I wasn't surprised that Abidi lost to Rampage (I think you're wrong when you say Abidi was overrated, he never was rated very highly just "exciting"), he was on the smaller side and liked to brawl, leaving himself open a lot, Rampage had power and while he also liked to brawl he had decent boxing technique.

What's surprising is that Aerts lost to Abidi, twice. The technical skill of a 3 time champion, at their peak, with a size advantage... he never should have lost. And that's what the OP was getting at.

That's why I would have put Abidi vs Aerts in the OP instead of Rampage vs Abidi.

 

[Mafanofe]

Yeah I really don't understand what you're trying say here.

But anyway, I wasn't surprised that Abidi lost to Rampage (I think you're wrong when you say Abidi was overrated, he never was rated very highly just "exciting"), he was on the smaller side and liked to brawl, leaving himself open a lot, Rampage had power and while he also liked to brawl he had decent boxing technique.

What's surprising is that Aerts lost to Abidi, twice. The technical skill of a 3 time champion, at their peak, with a size advantage... he never should have lost. And that's what the OP was getting at.

That's why I would have put Abidi vs Aerts in the OP instead of Rampage vs Abidi.

Aibidi career was overrated,and not the fighter hability who was always limitated...

as i said before,shit happens,the guy had a iron chin in the start of his career who got cracked up later then with consecutive KO losses,and he got Aerts twice,thats all,sometimes a fighter haves your number...

Almost all opponents that Aibidi lost to,Aerts has wins over(Sefo by TKO Twice,Thomson by KO,Ignashov,Hoost,Bonjasky,Musashi,Goodridge,JLB)

this is the difference


-Arlovski lost to Rogers
-Hall TKOed Mousasi
-Ayala KOed Kharitonov
-Little nog got upset by Sokoudjou
-Indongo KOed Troyanovsky in less than a min with a single punch
-Khan got KOed in less than a min by Prescott
-Petrosyan got KOed by ristie

the list is just goes all day long


what the OP was trying was doing a clickbait thread who didnt work in this section of the forum

 

[axion]

Aibidi career was overrated,and not the fighter hability who was always limitated...

as i said before,shit happens,the guy had a iron chin in the start of his career who got cracked up later then with consecutive KO losses,and he got Aerts twice,thats all,sometimes a fighter haves your number...

Almost all opponents that Aibidi lost to,Aerts has wins over(Sefo by TKO Twice,Thomson by KO,Ignashov,Hoost,Bonjasky,Musashi,Goodridge,JLB)

this is the difference


-Arlovski lost to Rogers
-Hall TKOed Mousasi
-Ayala KOed Kharitonov
-Little nog got upset by Sokoudjou
-Indongo KOed Troyanovsky in less than a min with a single punch
-Khan got KOed in less than a min by Prescott
-Petrosyan got KOed by ristie

the list is just goes all day long


what the OP was trying was doing a clickbait thread who didnt work in this section of the forum

Dude, please stop.

His career was overrated but his ability not? What does this even mean? By whom? Show me where Abidi was highly rated.

What is the K-1 equivalent of MMATH, cos you just went there, and you shouldn't have.

MMA vs MMA
MMA vs MMA
MMA vs MMA
MMA vs MMA
Undefeated boxer vs undefeated boxer
Undefeated boxer vs undefeated boxer
Accomplished kickboxer vs accomplished kickboxer

Nobody has said upsets don't happen, what are you even talking about?