How will history remember Chris Kyle?

hi PainIsLife,

i would hope that Kyle saw the error, and sheepishly just went along with it with some prodding from his publisher, like you said.

i'd hate to think he happily went along with it, and promoted this fictive account of his valor. i'm not in the military, but there seems (to me) to be something really dishonorable about lying about awards and decorations from one's military service.

- IGIT

True, but it seems that all his buddies from his SEAL unit went along with it - so I wont judge without knowing the full detail.

Btw- I don't hold Kyle up as some sort of hero. He was good at what he did and I'm glad he was, he wrote a book to make $ about it and embellished some details; doesn't mean a lot to me 1 way or the other - I didn't read the book or watch the movie.
 
hi PainIsLife,

i would hope that Kyle saw the error, and sheepishly just went along with it with some prodding from his publisher, like you said.

i'd hate to think he happily went along with it, and promoted this fictive account of his valor. i'm not in the military, but there seems (to me) to be something really dishonorable about lying about awards and decorations from one's military service.

- IGIT

It was his duty to get that right just like if someone erroneously thought I was awarded something I didn't rate, it would be my obligation to correct it. A Silver Star and Bronze Star is an incredibly high honor that men and women have died and spilt blood to receive. It was his duty to honor his brothers and be forthcoming about his service.
 
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yep!

when i said that the US military still follows the dogma of deploying maximum force concentration, it no longer does so with just boots on the ground - this is what i was referring to. maximum force can also mean the brute force application of technology...expensive technology.

i was just pointing out that its probably a little inaccurate to measure the cost of war in blood lost. we're talking about trillions of dollars, afterall.

*salutes*

- IGIT
Very fair.

I think one of the best reasons for discussing why Iraq may have been a worse mistake than Vietnam, although much harder to quantify, is how it has destabilized the region. One of the silver linings to Vietnam was that once Saigon fell, it had relatively little effect on the region around it. It had some, the Khmer Rouge being the strongest example that could be argued (which is a really bad one), but Iraq has created an absolute ton of problems that operate at the non-state levels. Hell, the shooting at San Bernardino could easily be tied back to the presence of US forces in Iraq. Of course, ISIS, Syrian issues, Iranian nuclear progress, and others all have direct linkages back to Iraq.
 
I think one of the best reasons for discussing why Iraq may have been a worse mistake than Vietnam, although much harder to quantify, is how it has destabilized the region.

hi sub_thug,

that's pretty much how i see it too. i'm actually not that critical of GWB (with a big assist from Mr. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Feith, and Wolfowitz) for the actual invasion of Iraq. in the wake of 9/11, i could imagine a hawkish Democratic POTUS reacting the same way.

the post invasion occupation, though, was a catastrophe. a completely unforgivable mess - and i lay the blame for that entirely on the civilian "leadership" in the Bush White House (along with the clueless Paul Bremer).

- IGIT
 
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There's a few things that I would rather not get into in public, but I just don't see what good I did.

We got rid of Saddam and caused a decade long conflict from destabilising the region. There were never any WMDs. We fucking destroyed everything and abandoned it to ISIS. Every single person I met over there who was worth a shit is dead now. They were killed by the people we essentially just let take reign of the country.

I just don't feel good about anything that I did over there. The people we replaced Saddam with don't seem any better.

We kicked ass and and left while I lost friends for what seems like nothing.
As I read your post, it's hard to consider what Mao might have said. He likely would have spoken about time and political will, fundamental tenets of guerrilla warfare (expanding on the previous gold standard as modeled in the works of Che). While I certainly understand the desire not to continuously double down on failure, we needed to understand that what we were trying to accomplish was something that was going to take a long, long time. Things needed to get worse before they were going to get better, and I think that we lacked the will to see that process through. It probably wasn't worth taking on in the first place, but it is theoretically something that we could have accomplished over a long enough timeline. It's doubly a shame that we half-assed it because we made things worse in many ways, and the process for doing it was very costly in many ways.

When I think of my time there, I try to think about the things that we did at the individual level that made people's lives better. Hopefully, this painful chapter leads to them developing a real democracy and freedoms over there. We will see what the future holds. Fortunately, the story is long from being over.
 
hi sub_thug,

that's pretty much how i see it too. i'm actually not that critical of GWB (with a big assist from Mr. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Feith, and Wolfowitz) for the actual invasion of Iraq. in the wake of 9/11, i could imagine a hawkish Democratic POTUS reacting the same way.

the post invasion occupation, though, was a catastrophe. a completely unforgivable mess - and i lay the blame for that entirely on the civilian "leadership" in the Bush White House (along with the entirely clueless Paul Bremer).

- IGIT
Hi IGIT,

I'm actually pretty critical of GWB and crew. In addition to the names you enumerated, I would add Rice's to the list. She was just as much of a neocon as the rest of them. As Scott McClellan said in his book, Bush was talking about invading Iraq pretty much straight from the moment he entered office. The crew that we are discussing were fully on board, and this was starting about 8 months before 9/11. Now, I don't think the oil thing makes sense for a variety of reasons, so I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I just think that Bush had this idea that he was going to take out Saddam, and he was looking for a round peg that would fit into the square hole. When George Tenet told him that WMD's were a "slam dunk" (because Tenet was a yes-man), Bush finally saw the reason to pull the trigger. I think that Bush's single-mindedness was the thing that started this war, and I hold him very responsible for that. It was egregiously stupid, and I was very disappointed with his decision-making.

As for the occupation, I think that Rumsfeld is largely responsible. He thought that he could lead the military as a General of Generals, but he was dramatically under-qualified for that role. His leadership was beyond abhorrent, and he fired any General that told him a truth that he didn't want to hear. I also blame the Generals for becoming yes-men and politicians instead of defending the interests of their men. I also think some incompetent but politically savvy military officers were making bad decisions throughout the occupation, but our culture of Generals believing "we can't say anything bad about another General" held us back from taking honest looks at ourselves. I'm considerably less critical of the Lieutenant Colonels and below, as I believe that they still had enough skin in the game to be motivated to do the right things. I think that our senior officers need to take good, honest looks at themselves and figure out if this is the culture that they want to be continued in the military. I don't think that we should be political in the manner that we are. We should be insulated from those kinds of games in order to preserve our meritocracy and looking out for the troops beneath them. However, we need more politicization in the sense that we should be more integrated with the State Department, intel community, and other agencies that we actually work with to support our missions.

-Sub_thug
 
As I read your post, it's hard to consider what Mao might have said. He likely would have spoken about time and political will, fundamental tenets of guerrilla warfare (expanding on the previous gold standard as modeled in the works of Che). While I certainly understand the desire not to continuously double down on failure, we needed to understand that what we were trying to accomplish was something that was going to take a long, long time. Things needed to get worse before they were going to get better, and I think that we lacked the will to see that process through. It probably wasn't worth taking on in the first place, but it is theoretically something that we could have accomplished over a long enough timeline. It's doubly a shame that we half-assed it because we made things worse in many ways, and the process for doing it was very costly in many ways.

When I think of my time there, I try to think about the things that we did at the individual level that made people's lives better. Hopefully, this painful chapter leads to them developing a real democracy and freedoms over there. We will see what the future holds. Fortunately, the story is long from being over.

I try to think of the good things I did, but I honestly can't think of much. All I can remember is the many failures. We tried to help the Iraqi police and in return they tried to murder me. We tried to build schools, so insurgents would attack them and scare families away. Everyone who tried to help us would get murdered. Then we finally get it settled down and turn it over to who? Fucking ISIS. I just wish they would have finished the job.

I really wish I could be proud of my service, but honestly I felt a lot of shame when I got out into college and I'm still uncomfortable telling people I served. Talking online really is the only time I'll really open up about it because I don't feel judged.
 
I try to think of the good things I did, but I honestly can't think of much. All I can remember is the many failures. We tried to help the Iraqi police and in return they tried to murder me. We tried to build schools, so insurgents would attack them and scare families away. Everyone who tried to help us would get murdered. Then we finally get it settled down and turn it over to who? Fucking ISIS. I just wish they would have finished the job.

I really wish I could be proud of my service, but honestly I felt a lot of shame when I got out into college and I'm still uncomfortable telling people I served. Talking online really is the only time I'll really open up about it because I don't feel judged.
Man, I'm really sorry that you feel the way that you do. That really sucks. Please try to keep in mind that these things continue over the course of many generations, so your tours are mere microcosms of the greater picture. When you look at things like the American Revolution, you could easily make the case that it was a couple of greedy colonists complaining about taxes that ultimately destabilized the colonies, encroached on Native lands, and extended the institution of slavery. But it also gave birth to a nation of innovators, purveyors of democracy around the world, and a model of freedom. It took over 100 years before we really became a nation worthy of respect. What we did in Iraq definitely created some problems, but it may have also created some opportunities. As I said, the story is far from over. As the zen master might say, "We'll see."

 
Man, I'm really sorry that you feel the way that you do. That really sucks. Please try to keep in mind that these things continue over the course of many generations, so your tours are mere microcosms of the greater picture. When you look at things like the American Revolution, you could easily make the case that it was a couple of greedy colonists complaining about taxes that ultimately destabilized the colonies, encroached on Native lands, and extended the institution of slavery. But it also gave birth to a nation of innovators, purveyors of democracy around the world, and a model of freedom. It took over 100 years before we really became a nation worthy of respect. What we did in Iraq definitely created some problems, but it may have also created some opportunities. As I said, the story is far from over. As the zen master might say, "We'll see."



It is what it is. The war would have happened without me. I just don't feel good about it the job I did. Tried to do as much good as possible when there was no room for it.
 
I wasn't calling you out but I had never heard anybody state what you had said.

I know you weren't. I just wanted to clairify where my previous statement had came from.

So basically 7 people said they heard what Ventura said, or had seen some kind of altercation, or both, but their recollection of the incident was inconsistent.

You know how that it is. I'm sure you've been in enough stuff to know that 7 people can be looking at the exact same thing and see 7 different things.

"At least seven witnesses testified they overheard some of Ventura’s remarks, and offered generally similar accounts of what Ventura said. At least seven witnesses testified they saw Kyle (or an unidentified man, for those who did not know Kyle) punch Ventura; saw Ventura on the ground or getting up off the ground; or heard a “commotion” or “yelling.” Witness estimates of the timing and location of the incident were not consistent."

Because it was probably not a significant event at the time. How many bar/barracks fights have you seen that weren't signifcant to your life at the time that you would not be able to recall exactly correctly if you were forced to? It's a bar. People are drinking.

"Kyle mentioned in the interviews, but not the book, that the police saw the whole incident. Ventura produced a letter from the Coronado police department stating there was no police record mentioning Ventura’s or Kyle’s name. Ventura introduced photos of himself at a graduation event the day after the alleged incident that show no obvious injuries, despite Kyle having written “rumor has it he showed up at the BUD/S graduation with a black eye.”

Being incorrect about a black eye does not mean he fabricated the incident. And the Police aren't going to make an official statement that says "no, our officers absolutely witnessed an assault of a prominent person and former Minnesota State Governor with general anti Police leanings and made no attempt to pursue the suspect or follow up in any way". How many fights have you seen in Jacksonville, Twentynine Palms, San Diego or Oceanside that involve the Police simply breaking the fight up and sending people on their way or even sticking people in patrol cars and driving them back to the gate? Because I've seen it dozens of times. Most of the cops around Marine bases are former Marines and Navy themselves, and a lot of the dudes around Jacksonville are former Army from Bragg. Saying that there were police in the area who did nothing about yet another fight at a SEAL bar is far from a stretch of the imagination.

Overall reading the summary it certainly brings up a very different story than you were originally suggesting. Glad you pulled a source and were prudent enough to respond with it even though it didn't support your original narrative.

And that's why I said "I was sort of right". It was 7 people, but they weren't all SEALs, and didn't all say they personally witnessed the punch being landed.
 
I know you weren't. I just wanted to clairify where my previous statement had came from.



You know how that it is. I'm sure you've been in enough stuff to know that 7 people can be looking at the exact same thing and see 7 different things.



Because it was probably not a significant event at the time. How many bar/barracks fights have you seen that weren't signifcant to your life at the time that you would not be able to recall exactly correctly if you were forced to? It's a bar. People are drinking.



Being incorrect about a black eye does not mean he fabricated the incident. And the Police aren't going to make an official statement that says "no, our officers absolutely witnessed an assault of a prominent person and former Minnesota State Governor with general anti Police leanings and made no attempt to pursue the suspect or follow up in any way". How many fights have you seen in Jacksonville, Twentynine Palms, San Diego or Oceanside that involve the Police simply breaking the fight up and sending people on their way or even sticking people in patrol cars and driving them back to the gate? Because I've seen it dozens of times. Most of the cops around Marine bases are former Marines and Navy themselves, and a lot of the dudes around Jacksonville are former Army from Bragg. Saying that there were police in the area who did nothing about yet another fight at a SEAL bar is far from a stretch of the imagination.



And that's why I said "I was sort of right". It was 7 people, but they weren't all SEALs, and didn't all say they personally witnessed the punch being landed.

Everything you said here falls apart when there's a huge celebrity like Jesse Ventura in the bar. If he gets into a bar fight people are interested and it gets reported on the local news. Cops who witness a bar fight usually arrest someone as well, and especially so when it's a well known politician. Everything about the alleged incident just doesn't sound right. Either way the courts (and a jury) have agreed that the incident likely didn't occur in the way it was described by Kyle. Lots of "red flags" here and most of it doesn't add up... perhaps Kyle was so drunk he just assumed the guy he hit was Ventura because.... reasons? Who knows.
 
He was schizophrenic and had PTSD according to his family.

Schizo makes more sense in terms of murdering somebody out of the middle of nowhere compared to a general PTSD diagnosis. I hadn't heard the schizo thing before but it makes way more sense.
 
Schizo makes more sense in terms of murdering somebody out of the middle of nowhere compared to a general PTSD diagnosis. I hadn't heard the schizo thing before but it makes way more sense.

He even told the cops he shot them because they didn't talk to him on the way to the range. Said he just sat in the back and they drove and didn't talk to him.

Definitely had some mental issues.
 
Everything you said here falls apart when there's a huge celebrity like Jesse Ventura in the bar. If he gets into a bar fight people are interested and it gets reported on the local news. Cops who witness a bar fight usually arrest someone as well, and especially so when it's a well known politician. Everything about the alleged incident just doesn't sound right. Either way the courts (and a jury) have agreed that the incident likely didn't occur in the way it was described by Kyle. Lots of "red flags" here and most of it doesn't add up... perhaps Kyle was so drunk he just assumed the guy he hit was Ventura because.... reasons? Who knows.

The case went for Ventura because of the outside stuff that was brought in, again after his death. You should read about some of that stuff.
 
I try to think of the good things I did, but I honestly can't think of much. All I can remember is the many failures. We tried to help the Iraqi police and in return they tried to murder me. We tried to build schools, so insurgents would attack them and scare families away. Everyone who tried to help us would get murdered. Then we finally get it settled down and turn it over to who? Fucking ISIS. I just wish they would have finished the job.

I really wish I could be proud of my service, but honestly I felt a lot of shame when I got out into college and I'm still uncomfortable telling people I served. Talking online really is the only time I'll really open up about it because I don't feel judged.
Salute to your service, I have good friends who died there...one I was extremely close to,he was setting himself up for a cia job..fucking bright dude..he came from an extremely pro nationalist family who owned a local restaurant. The mom was wrecked when he died..for the time he was alive there was portraits of bush jr and stuff all over the restaurant. After he died she destroyed everything in the restaurant one night after closing..the locals really came down on her hard saying she was disrespecting America and shit. I helped his brother empty the restaurant (they sold it). The mom is still wrecked,she is beyond repair,it destroyed her.


The point of all this is....

I drive by the st. The restaurant was on every once in awhile (they named it after him) ... turned into a shithole bar, and think what was it all for? Looking back now, why? It’s evident we didn’t achieve anything aside from strengthening isis. I was staunchly against bush jr and that war when it was very unpopular to be and the lesson I took from all of it was this...


Nationalism is the single most destructive and dangerous thing sometimes,it blinds critical thinking,rational behavior and turns the masses into easily manipulated play doh.

I will add this..don’t ever think down on yourself,be proud and know you tried to do the right thing..the soldiers and men had good hearts and good motivations...it was the brass/bush/politics that failed not the soldiers.


Salute man, and understand you are not at all responsible for the quagmire..you are the only cog in that machine that got it right.

Respect.


In a side note:

The Iraq war made me wish that presidents/warhawks/neoconservative/politicians should have there families mandatorily enlisted into any war they so valiantly promote...they should feel that pain,the pain us lowly peeps feel because of there decisions.

Bet a lot of wars wouldn’t be happening
 
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I'm more inclined to blame publishers for the lies. They want you to either embellish or straight up lie.

this is sometimes true.

its also true that people will lie about themselves.

do you have any evidence to believe one over the other?
 
this is sometimes true.

its also true that people will lie about themselves.

do you have any evidence to believe one over the other?
No, the guy is a liar too, just saying that publishers give pretty nice incentive to lie about things.
 
As far as I remember, in the book he does talk about being in New Orleans for some school during the time Katrina occurred, but he does not go beyond talking about learning certain spy craft such as lock picking and stealing a car (then returning it). I have to admit that it does sound like bullshit that he would go to a course that involved stealing someone's actual car. I'm sure that certain groups are taught this skill, but I'm sure they use cars that they own and not random citizens cars. Then again, I've never been in that course so maybe they do have students commit car theft to graduate. Seems like bullshit to me though.

The shooting people during Katrina story is something I've heard as pure secondary information. I've never seen where Chris Kyle made that claim, only that people say he told them that story. For all we know, he could have just been fucking with some guy who crossed a line by asking him about his kills or something. I just don't know. It seems like he's definitely an exaggerator if not straight up liar not I can't attribute that Katrina story to him.
For everyone ITT wondering about Kyle's 'Murdering Americans' stories, they're from this 2013 article in the New Yorker:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/03/in-the-crosshairs


Murdering Americans in Texas:
In January, 2010, Kyle later told friends, he was once again put to the test: two men tried to carjack his truck. He was parked at a gas station, southwest of Dallas. “He told the robbers that he just needed to reach back into the truck to get the keys,” Michael J. Mooney wrote in a recent article about Kyle, in D Magazine. Mooney, who had worked on the piece with Kyle’s coöperation, wrote that Kyle “turned around and reached under his winter coat instead, into his waistband. With his right hand, he grabbed his Colt 1911”—a sidearm that is popular with military personnel. “He fired two shots under his left armpit, hitting the first man twice in the chest. Then he turned slightly and fired two more times, hitting the second man twice in the chest. Both men fell dead.”

Police officers arrived at the scene. When they ran Kyle’s license, Mooney wrote, something unusual occurred: “Instead of his name, address, and date of birth, what came up was a phone number at the Department of Defense. At the other end of the line was someone who explained that the police were in the presence of one of the most skilled fighters in U.S. military history.” According to Kyle, security cameras documented the episode.

Like Mooney, I also heard many of Kyle’s friends and associates tell this story. Details varied, but the ending was the same: Kyle drove away without being charged and, as Mooney put it in a related blog post, later received “e-mails from police officers all over the country, thanking him for ‘cleaning up the streets.’ ” Mooney never saw the security tape or found other corroborating evidence, such as police files or a coroner’s report for the dead carjackers. “Consider this story confirmed by the man himself,” he wrote in the blog post, in which he described Kyle as a “true American badass” and a “real-life action hero.”

Murdering Americans in New Orleans:
Not long after the radio-show (O&A) appearance, Kyle was contacted by Brandon Webb, a veteran who had served with him on SEAL Team Three. Webb, now the editor of SOFREP, a Web site covering special-operations forces, invited Kyle and another former SEAL to participate in a taped discussion about life as a special operator. Webb asked Pat Kilbane, an actor, to moderate the discussion. Kyle met them at a bar in San Diego to tape the program.

The session went well. Kilbane told me that he was struck by Kyle’s “aura,” noting that whenever “he walked in the room the dynamic would change, the energy in the room would shift.” Afterward, a larger group went out for dinner, closed the hotel bar, and hung out in Kyle’s suite, drinking until late. The SEALs began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one. In the days after Hurricane Katrina, he said, the law-and-order situation was dire. He and another sniper travelled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceeded to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos. Three people shared with me varied recollections of that evening: the first said that Kyle claimed to have shot thirty men on his own; according to the second, the story was that Kyle and the other sniper had shot thirty men between them; the third said that she couldn’t recall specific details.

Had Kyle gone to New Orleans with a gun? Rumors of snipers—both police officers and criminal gunmen—circulated in the weeks after the storm. Since then, they have been largely discredited. A spokesman for U.S. Special Operations Command, or SOCOM, told me, “To the best of anyone’s knowledge at SOCOM, there were no West Coast SEALs deployed to Katrina.” When I related this account to one of Kyle’s officers, he replied, sardonically, “I never heard that story.” The SEAL with extensive experience in special-mission units wondered how dozens of people could be shot by high-velocity rifles and just disappear; Kyle’s version of events, he said, “defies the imagination.” (In April, Webb published an article on SOFREP about the incident, but took it down after concluding that Kyle’s account was dubious.)
 
So the guy lied about sniping off looters in New Orleans and about killing two car jackers in Texas?

Lol. It's like the collective fantasies of every WR right-winger.
 
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