How will history remember Chris Kyle?

Well, it is not so much about the US going in physically taking the oil out. But rather Iraq putting oil into the market at full capacity.
That is where people like the Koch brothers make their money from the refining of the oil. It doesn't really matter that much where the oil comes from (they make money no matter what).
They are just worried about a guy like Saddam messing with the large reserve from Iraq not making it to the market.
This is the short version of course. The military industrial complex right up there with the oil lobby.

That's why the Saudis are good. In many aspects, the Saudi are worse than Saddam. And if you actually wanted to go after terrorists you would hang the whole royal family.
But its all good because the Saudis while supporting radical Islam around the world don't mess with their oil getting into the market.
That's why Trump was ordered to go Sword Dancing with them.

In general, I don't have a problem with that. If it would benefit all of America like the oil industry does in Norway for example.
It is just that the US has a system set up so all the money stays with the top 1%.
And you can see it in here with the propaganda some people think it is about terrorism or human rights etc.
When they just do the dirty work for the 1%.

Who owns those oil rights since like 2013ish?
 
Not going to get into an argument with you, but I served in Iraq 2005-2006. I can tell you that 90% or more of the insurgency were not Iraqis. Hardly anyone was "defending their home turf" over there.

Can confirm... was in Fallujah in 04-05 (Phantom Fury) and there were a fuck ton of 6' tall caucasian dudes... likely Chechynans. We also captured quite a few Jordanians and Syrians, but not a ton of Iraqi's.

Mostly Saudis and Syrians when I was over there. Either way, this premise that we are fighting Iraqis over there is complete bullshit. It always cracks me up when people who have never served or deployed think they know what goes on over there lol.

can also confirm. After Phantom, We were setting up interdiction missions in western iraq outside of Ramadi bouncing groups sneaking into the country using the Tigris-Euphrates as transit. picked up lots of Libyans and Algerians.

@snakedafunky did you catch all this, bro?
 
He simply HAS to be acknowledged for his accomplishments on the battle field. A true war hero who was senselessly murdered while trying to help out a fellow soldier in need.

But we also have to acknowledge that, for some strange reason, he felt it was necessary to lie and exaggerate his already impressive feats.

We're too used to looking at these things in black and white terms, and Kyle's situation illustrates that. He was a flawed man like anyone else.
 
@snakedafunky did you catch all this, bro?

Yes but that doesn't match what the official US numbers I already posted say.
But I didn't want to be disrespectful to those posters. I am sure some of those were foreign fighters also the minority.
But there is also the propaganda effect. I am sure they don't want to be seen as conquerors and killers for natural resources but rather as anti-terrorism fighters or an Army that liberated Iraq.
The official numbers just simply don't match that.
I mean how many people have been killed due to the US invasion 500,000 or so?
That must way hard on most soldiers conscience.
 
I just sort of used the Koch brother as an example because they are most prominent oil lobbyist. What I basically mean is big oil and some big finance companies behind that. I just don't know any of other main lobbying guys.

It's not really a CT because that was official US policy I remember this report from the US energy group in the early 2000 not sure when but before the Iraq war.
It was already stated that Saddam was a real threat that could bring volatility to the market.
And that they could not rely on him anymore because he already limited or increased the output however he personally saw fit. Mostly for his agenda. The didn't come out right and said he has to be removed but that was the clear meaning of that.

Like I said before the US oil lobby doesn't care about China or EU getting the oil from Iraq. In fact, that's what they want to happen. So that they don't need to get from the US sources.
Which are in South and North America mostly. What they are worried about the volatility that increases the price or sharply decreases it. That is what they don't want.
And Saddam was already doing that.
The Saudis, for example, didn't want Saddam removed because he was a buffer between them and Iran. But of course, they don't have any real influence compared to the US.

Let me see if I can find the report also that was like 50 pages. I am surprised that doesn't get mention more often in the US. Because that report was used in Germany a lot to justify not going into Iraq a lot. (also Germany also only did for political reasons).
I remember that because I was in favour of the Iraq war at the time and most people were not. But it was always clear that it was a war from the US oil lobby mostly.
Which I think is fine and I glad Saddam is dead. Also in hindsight, it would have been better if he was still alive all things considered.
I was definitely wrong at the time.

Edit ok I found that report or at least I think that is the one :):
NVM that appear to be te wrong one.

Yeah get me the report I’m interested

Yeah many of us were wrong for different reasons, the biggest one being you can’t ignore sectarian, religious extremism, and the correlated risk of creating power vacuums when looking at fucking with the ME.
 
Yes but that doesn't match what the official US numbers I already posted say.
But I didn't want to be disrespectful to those posters. I am sure some of those were foreign fighters also the minority.
But there is also the propaganda effect. I am sure they don't want to be seen as conquerors and killers for natural resources but rather as anti-terrorism fighters or an Army that liberated Iraq.
The official numbers just simply don't match that.
I mean how many people have been killed due to the US invasion 500,000 or so?
That must way hard on most soldiers conscience.

Soooo.... all the dudes who are actually in this thread who were on the ground are contradicting the politically motivated reports you read... So you're going to tell them they're wrong... ok...

The official numbers just simply don't match that

That's because the official numbers aren't telling the truth. It's amazing that you think a government would invent a reason to go to war to justify an invasion purely for natural resources, something that is the direct opposite reason given for that invasion (thus you completely distrust said government) buit 100% believe the information given about said invasion by the same government (thus you now completely trust that same government) about what is going on within that conflict. Oh well. I guess some people just don't need to have any sort of logical consistency in their arguments.
 
He simply HAS to be acknowledged for his accomplishments on the battle field. A true war hero who was senselessly murdered while trying to help out a fellow soldier in need.

But we also have to acknowledge that, for some strange reason, he felt it was necessary to lie and exaggerate his already impressive feats.

We're too used to looking at these things in black and white terms, and Kyle's situation illustrates that. He was a flawed man like anyone else.

hi IGotAHugePeckah,

most of us can name all of the Medal of Honor of recipients we know of on one hand (and not use all our fingers).

Mr. Kyle won't be remembered either way. outside a small cadre of military buffs, on one will remember him. i say that in no way to disrespect the man; that's just how it is.

- IGIT
 
For everyone ITT wondering about Kyle's 'Murdering Americans' stories, they're from this 2013 article in the New Yorker:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/03/in-the-crosshairs


Murdering Americans in Texas:
In January, 2010, Kyle later told friends, he was once again put to the test: two men tried to carjack his truck. He was parked at a gas station, southwest of Dallas. “He told the robbers that he just needed to reach back into the truck to get the keys,” Michael J. Mooney wrote in a recent article about Kyle, in D Magazine. Mooney, who had worked on the piece with Kyle’s coöperation, wrote that Kyle “turned around and reached under his winter coat instead, into his waistband. With his right hand, he grabbed his Colt 1911”—a sidearm that is popular with military personnel. “He fired two shots under his left armpit, hitting the first man twice in the chest. Then he turned slightly and fired two more times, hitting the second man twice in the chest. Both men fell dead.”

Police officers arrived at the scene. When they ran Kyle’s license, Mooney wrote, something unusual occurred: “Instead of his name, address, and date of birth, what came up was a phone number at the Department of Defense. At the other end of the line was someone who explained that the police were in the presence of one of the most skilled fighters in U.S. military history.” According to Kyle, security cameras documented the episode.

Like Mooney, I also heard many of Kyle’s friends and associates tell this story. Details varied, but the ending was the same: Kyle drove away without being charged and, as Mooney put it in a related blog post, later received “e-mails from police officers all over the country, thanking him for ‘cleaning up the streets.’ ” Mooney never saw the security tape or found other corroborating evidence, such as police files or a coroner’s report for the dead carjackers. “Consider this story confirmed by the man himself,” he wrote in the blog post, in which he described Kyle as a “true American badass” and a “real-life action hero.”

Murdering Americans in New Orleans:
Not long after the radio-show (O&A) appearance, Kyle was contacted by Brandon Webb, a veteran who had served with him on SEAL Team Three. Webb, now the editor of SOFREP, a Web site covering special-operations forces, invited Kyle and another former SEAL to participate in a taped discussion about life as a special operator. Webb asked Pat Kilbane, an actor, to moderate the discussion. Kyle met them at a bar in San Diego to tape the program.

The session went well. Kilbane told me that he was struck by Kyle’s “aura,” noting that whenever “he walked in the room the dynamic would change, the energy in the room would shift.” Afterward, a larger group went out for dinner, closed the hotel bar, and hung out in Kyle’s suite, drinking until late. The SEALs began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one. In the days after Hurricane Katrina, he said, the law-and-order situation was dire. He and another sniper travelled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceeded to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos. Three people shared with me varied recollections of that evening: the first said that Kyle claimed to have shot thirty men on his own; according to the second, the story was that Kyle and the other sniper had shot thirty men between them; the third said that she couldn’t recall specific details.

Had Kyle gone to New Orleans with a gun? Rumors of snipers—both police officers and criminal gunmen—circulated in the weeks after the storm. Since then, they have been largely discredited. A spokesman for U.S. Special Operations Command, or SOCOM, told me, “To the best of anyone’s knowledge at SOCOM, there were no West Coast SEALs deployed to Katrina.” When I related this account to one of Kyle’s officers, he replied, sardonically, “I never heard that story.” The SEAL with extensive experience in special-mission units wondered how dozens of people could be shot by high-velocity rifles and just disappear; Kyle’s version of events, he said, “defies the imagination.” (In April, Webb published an article on SOFREP about the incident, but took it down after concluding that Kyle’s account was dubious.)


Well alright then. Apparently he was John Wick. 4 shots. 2 dead men. From under the arm pit, because why not?

I just don't get it. It's not like he was one of those guys who joined combat arms but never got a CAR on deployment so they make up wild stories to compensate. This man has real stories for days.
 
Soooo.... all the dudes who are actually in this thread who were on the ground are contradicting the politically motivated reports you read... So you're going to tell them they're wrong... ok...



That's because the official numbers aren't telling the truth. It's amazing that you think a government would invent a reason to go to war to justify an invasion purely for natural resources, something that is the direct opposite reason given for that invasion (thus you completely distrust said government) buit 100% believe the information given about said invasion by the same government (thus you now completely trust that same government) about what is going on within that conflict. Oh well. I guess some people just don't need to have any sort of logical consistency in their arguments.

No the numbers I posted are from the US military. If you have anything to disprove those numbers that's fine I will read it.
But I can't take some posts on an internet forum as proof.
If I would say I was there and all of them were Iraqis I would need something to back that up.

My argument is completely consistent as I have pointed out before.
You are just trying to misrepresent my arguments. At no time have I said I completely distrust said government. Or that I 100% believe the information.

I do not believe the US military cooked those numbers because it wouldn't make any sense.
At the time what they didn't want is exactly what the numbers indicate. And Iraqi uprising. That what they didn't want especially when they didn't find any WMD.
If they would have cooked the numbers they would do it the opposite way. Or Even better plant some WMDs.
 
No the numbers I posted are from the US military. If you have anything to disprove those numbers that's fine I will read it.
But I can't take some posts on an internet forum as proof.
If I would say I was there and all of them were Iraqis I would need something to back that up.

My argument is completely consistent as I have pointed out before.
You are just trying to misrepresent my arguments. At no time have I said I completely distrust said government. Or that I 100% believe the information.

I do not believe the US military cooked those numbers because it wouldn't make any sense.
At the time what they didn't want is exactly what the numbers indicate. And Iraqi uprising. That what they didn't want especially when they didn't find any WMD.
If they would have cooked the numbers they would do it the opposite way. Or Even better plant some WMDs.

I now have the testimonies of like 6 people who were actually there at various times. You have a single link to a political document. Believing that over the dudes dealing with the real situation every day is up to you.
 
The case went for Ventura because of the outside stuff that was brought in, again after his death. You should read about some of that stuff.

I'm not going to invest any time in this case because I don't feel there's a need. The likelihood of Ventura getting KO'd in a bar and nobody knowing about it until a significant period later is absurd. Eyewitness accounts didn't add up about time and location of the fight, and the witnesses for Ventura all claim there was no fight. Anyways, I'm not really personally vested here, but I just didn't believe your initial claim about 7 active duty SEALS all backing up Kyle. Since you provided a source which directly showed your original comment wasn't accurate, which you conceded, there's no point in going any further with this discussion.
 
I now have the testimonies of like 6 people who were actually there at various times. You have a single link to a political document. Believing that over the dudes dealing with the real situation every day is up to you.

Ok, so you do not have any actual numbers to disprove that? You can just say that.
Of course, you trust those other people because you have been on one side of the War.
And that is not a dig on you guys (that's why I didn't respond to those guys I don't want to disrespect anyone).
But you will never be able to see the issue neutral because you and the other people have chosen their site a long time ago.
I am however able to view this without any guilt or political doctrine. That it is probably why it so obviously for any neutral person.
 
Ok, so you do not have any actual numbers to disprove that? You can just say that..

Your numbers are lies. That's been backed up by every single veteran in this thread. So you can keep on with your "But the military says" routine when the actual military is in this thread telling you that isn't the case.

Of course, you trust those other people because you have been on one side of the War.

1.) You haven't been on any side of the war.

2.) Your own "numbers" come from a source that you yourself claim to openly distrust, unless it's in this one specific regard and it helps your argument on this one subject, then you believe them. Other than that, they're lying.

And that is not a dig on you guys (that's why I didn't respond to those guys I don't want to disrespect anyone).

Nobody takes that as disrespectful. What is disrespectful is when we talk about our actual, real war experience, things that we lived, and you tell us we're wrong because of some politically contrived news article you read that comes from a source that you yourself don't even trust. That sort of stuff is insulting.

But you will never be able to see the issue neutral because you and the other people have chosen their site a long time ago.
I am however able to view this without any guilt or political doctrine. That it is probably why it so obviously for any neutral person.

You don't seem to be operating with any sort of objectivity at all. You posted an article that has been refuted by every single veteran that has happened upon it, yet you're still assuming the moral high ground and acting as if you're right despite being told you're not by the people who were actually there. What part of that signals objectivity?
 
Your numbers are lies. That's been backed up by every single veteran in this thread. So you can keep on with your "But the military says" routine when the actual military is in this thread telling you that isn't the case.



1.) You haven't been on any side of the war.

2.) Your own "numbers" come from a source that you yourself claim to openly distrust, unless it's in this one specific regard and it helps your argument on this one subject, then you believe them. Other than that, they're lying.



Nobody takes that as disrespectful. What is disrespectful is when we talk about our actual, real war experience, things that we lived, and you tell us we're wrong because of some politically contrived news article you read that comes from a source that you yourself don't even trust. That sort of stuff is insulting.



You don't seem to be operating with any sort of objectivity at all. You posted an article that has been refuted by every single veteran that has happened upon it, yet you're still assuming the moral high ground and acting as if you're right despite being told you're not by the people who were actually there. What part of that signals objectivity?

But if you say those numbers are lies. Can please show that. That is all I am asking.
Because you are doing the thing you are accusing me of. You say the numbers from the military are lies and then turn around and say you trust other people from that military.
Which also happened to be your site. Your site would be lying no matter what.

Where have I said I completely distrust the US millitary please show me that? You are just trying to say I completely distrust the government and 100% trust those numbers.
I asked you again please show me where I did that. I have pointed out while I believe those numbers already.
Please feel free to show me other numbers and I will evaluate that and adjust my opinion accordingly.
But at the moment your argument is based on some posts from people on a karate forum.
 
But if you say those numbers are lies. Can please show that. That is all I am asking..

Because you aren't going to get some sort of spread sheet or flow chart on that. All you're going to get testimonials from me and the other dudes like me in this thread who were actually there who were on the ground chasing these dudes around. We almost never dealt with Iraqis. It was almost always foreigners. Those fighters were absolutely housed, funded and sheltered by for the most part wealthy Iraqis who were, for lack of a better term warlords. The Iraqis were far too caught up in there own civil war to mess around with us. The ones that did were almost unanimously foreign fighters. It got to the point where we to detain ANYONE who had a legitimate Iraqi government issued ID but was originally from Eqypt, Syria or Saudi Arabia. @usmctanker242 @jgarner @rocketskates @Roaming East @Mark Cutting, is my experience any different from what you saw?

Because you are doing the thing you are accusing me of. You say the numbers from the military are lies and then turn around and say you trust other people from that military.
Which also happened to be your site. Your site would be lying no matter what.

I'm saying you should trust the dudes on the ground and not the politically motivated numbers that the government puts out. Those are politically manufactured numbers that a construed in a way that is meant to protect political and military careers. Once you get to be about a Colonel in the Army or Marines you essentially become a politician. The truth stops mattering. Watch this Vice Documentary. The whole thing if you have the time. If you don't, or a ren't interested, watch the ten minutes from the 40-50 minute mark about the peace Jarga with the US and British Ambassador. Watch the following section about the way the events of the council are reported by the ISAF and then what actually really happened. The truth was never important. Manufacturing a story that looked good was. That's what you're presenting here.



Where have I said I completely distrust the US millitary please show me that? You are just trying to say I completely distrust the government and 100% trust those numbers.

Because that's what you're saying. Those are the Government's numbers. Those numbers don't come from dudes on the ground, they come from high ranking generals with careers to protect.

Please feel free to show me other numbers and I will evaluate that and adjust my opinion accordingly.
But at the moment your argument is based on some posts from people on a karate forum.

My arguement is based on 14 months running around the North Babil and Al Anbar provinces of Iraq trying to keep non Iraqi Jihadists from murdering Iraqis who didn't agree with their brand of Islam.
 
Because you aren't going to get some sort of spread sheet or flow chart on that. All you're going to get testimonials from me and the other dudes like me in this thread who were actually there who were on the ground chasing these dudes around. We almost never dealt with Iraqis. It was almost always foreigners. Those fighters were absolutely housed, funded and sheltered by for the most part wealthy Iraqis who were, for lack of a better term warlords. The Iraqis were far too caught up in there own civil war to mess around with us. The ones that did were almost unanimously foreign fighters. It got to the point where we to detain ANYONE who had a legitimate Iraqi government issued ID but was originally from Eqypt, Syria or Saudi Arabia. @usmctanker242 @jgarner @rocketskates @Roaming East @Mark Cutting, is my experience any different from what you saw?



I'm saying you should trust the dudes on the ground and not the politically motivated numbers that the government puts out. Those are politically manufactured numbers that a construed in a way that is meant to protect political and military careers. Once you get to be about a Colonel in the Army or Marines you essentially become a politician. The truth stops mattering. Watch this Vice Documentary. The whole thing if you have the time. If you don't, or a ren't interested, watch the ten minutes from the 40-50 minute mark about the peace Jarga with the US and British Ambassador. Watch the following section about the way the events of the council are reported by the ISAF and then what actually really happened. The truth was never important. Manufacturing a story that looked good was. That's what you're presenting here.





Because that's what you're saying. Those are the Government's numbers. Those numbers don't come from dudes on the ground, they come from high ranking generals with careers to protect.



My arguement is based on 14 months running around the North Babil and Al Anbar provinces of Iraq trying to keep non Iraqi Jihadists from murdering Iraqis who didn't agree with their brand of Islam.


The dickwads we chased around Ramadi were mostly foreigners. In fact, it was the locals who sort of helped us with the battle there. Part of the whole Anbar Awakening. Not that the locals really liked us much either,I think they just hated them more.

Every fighter that I got a positive identification for that I can recall was either Syrian, Chechen, Libyan, Saudi. We caught some Iraqi locals digging IED holes for money and others were letting insurgents stash munitions in their fields and houses. The Iraqi police were locals and they fucked us over at every opportunity. I could fill a book with all the things the local government did that was fucking shady.
 
My unit deployed to process, guard, interrogate, etc... We ended up doing more route security, force protection, etc... But it was well known that lots of foreign fighters were in country
 
You dudes need to take a moment to realize that not a single person involved in these stories of Chris Kyle ever made one statement about Christ Kyle saying these things while Chris Kyle was actually alive. It's nonsense.

I'm pretty sure he was alive when Ventura sued him.

When he died it caused a massive stir because Ventura persisted with the case against his estate. Which was managed by the wife.
 
Well, i can give a running account of my experiences in Iraq (March 2003- Sept 2003, August 2004 -April 2005, and January '07- April '07)
invasion was mostly us mopping up Iraqi army deserters and hangers on that basically either were attempting to form little resistance groups or were being narc'd out by their neighbors. That shit was ending by the end of my deployment though as it didnt take long for the Iraqis still with the urge to realize that fighting coalition troops was a fast track to paradise. Most of the time you were chasing after these guys after they tried to hit a supply convoy or where taking pot shots at engineer and civil guys.

By the time my second deployment came up, the Iraqis straight up would NOT fight us. Theyd pay some local jihadi who came in country to fight us, but they were all "friend friend no fighting here, love america! bush number 1 guy bro!". shit you had more red on red fighting then anything else. Some new guys trying to flex some muscle and the local Sunni gang putting the screws to em. We respond to that kind of disturbance and yeah, you're shooting at iraqi militia men but they are more concerned with disengaging with US forces to CONTINUE engaging each other. it was nuts.

by the time the surge was in effect, we were mostly acting as referee's that occasionally took incoming between various crime gangs, posturing between sunni and shia militias (dont get me started on the Mahdi :eek::eek::eek:s...) and iraqi on iraqi hate jerking. The ONLY guys who were waking up in the morning and putting their tactical Adidas joggers on to fight AMERICAN troops were the dumbasses that got conned into coming into the country to fight us. and they died like flies. local smokies were too smart for that shit. Maybe every now and then pop off a mag towards our general location just to put on the appearance of 'resistance for jihad' or whatever but most of these guys were all about that money. LOT of hooch and porn and drug running and shit. Thats why the guys taking the brunt of the fighting were Iraqi POLICE units.....
 
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