How Would Olympic Style Wrestling Par Terre (Mat/Ground) Skills Translate to MMA?

Body control, instincts, and wrestling IQ transfers. Specific par terre techniques and skillsets do not.
 
Could a greco guy, with a good squeeze, do this?
zeus-hogan-bear-hug.jpg
 
Dirty Holt said:
Body control, instincts, and wrestling IQ transfers. Specific par terre techniques and skillsets do not.
Click to expand...
This is what Im talking about. I suppose a better way to pose the question is; If an Olympic style wrestler with a really solid par tarre game entered MMA, would he be able to parlay those attributes, muscle memory, strength, etc into executing a dominant top game with stifling control and GnP more commonly associated with a fighter who came from an NCAA background? I tend to think the answer is yes.
 
ArtemV said:
I am sure they would do just fine. For.example, the Japanese (and ex-collegiate wrestlers from the US) teams seem to have better groundwork compared to other countries. They have nice turnovers and usually try to pin more often than most.

But some mma experience/bjj would be needed to secure and dominate positions though. Romero is a good example of this. He can barely keep his opponents down.
Click to expand...
I really want to see more examples play out. I think your assessment of Yoel is correct, he certainly has the skills of a FS wrestler. Unfortunately we rarely see a pure FS or GR wrestler enter MMA and the ones that do seem to prefer to strike and bully in the clinch.
 
yetanother said:
He didn't train it, shooto wasn't a combat style just a bunch of tournaments. Damian was only training greco at that time and just signed up for some amature mma for fun and ko'ed some dude.
Click to expand...
Im just glad to have finally confirmed that he does indeed have some MMA-esque experience prior to retiring from wrestling. I read it on another site years ago and hadn't been able to find anything.
 
dsdoubled said:
Im just glad to have finally confirmed that he does indeed have some MMA-esque experience prior to retiring from wrestling. I read it on another site years ago and hadn't been able to find anything.
Click to expand...

He signed up (and won) for a tourney but he didn't train MMA before it and long after it.
 
Some pretty interesting par terre from this freestyler.

 
ArtemV said:
But some mma experience/bjj would be needed to secure and dominate positions though. Romero is a good example of this. He can barely keep his opponents down.
Click to expand...

Romero used almost zero par terre when he competed. He was a guy who only relied on takedowns to score. It would be like asking how John Smith's upper body wrestling would help him in MMA.

Cejudo is a great example of par terre skills transferring. Keep in mind, Cejudo only had maybe 5 years of collegiate and switched to freestyle when he was 16. He kept the greatest MMA fighter down for significant periods of time, and has been above average at top control.
 
rmongler said:
Some pretty interesting par terre from this freestyler.

Click to expand...

Jeez, Askren was amazing. That was no scrub he was going against. Multi DI All American with international world-level medals.
 
Dirty Holt said:
Romero used almost zero par terre when he competed. He was a guy who only relied on takedowns to score. It would be like asking how John Smith's upper body wrestling would help him in MMA.

Cejudo is a great example of par terre skills transferring. Keep in mind, Cejudo only had maybe 5 years of collegiate and switched to freestyle when he was 16. He kept the greatest MMA fighter down for significant periods of time, and has been above average at top control.
Click to expand...
Cejudo has got to be the most useful one to look at in the context of this discussion. However, I really want to see how these European Greco guys coming into MMA will do on top. Mark Madsen, Mihran Harutyunyan, Marthin Hamlet Nielsen, etc.
 
dsdoubled said:
Cejudo has got to be the most useful one to look at in the context of this discussion. However, I really want to see how these European Greco guys coming into MMA will do on top. Mark Madsen, Mihran Harutyunyan, Marthin Hamlet Nielsen, etc.
Click to expand...
Migran actually has pretty good striking too. Side note, Madsen moved into my housing complex at the Olympic Training Center for like 4 months in 2011. Dude is super tough
 
Dirty Holt said:
Migran actually has pretty good striking too.
Click to expand...
It seems that many of the Greco roman wrestlers competing in MMA prefer to strike and bully in the clinch. Obviously the clinch work is not a surprise but Ive always thought the striking part was. Especially when most of them are quite effective in hurting their opponents despite not having much striing training. Maybe its the more upright posture that they are used too lending itself to striking better?
 
Dirty Holt said:
Side note, Madsen moved into my housing complex at the Olympic Training Center for like 4 months in 2011. Dude is super tough
Click to expand...
Ive seen you post about this sort of thing a few times, how common is it for international studs to spend good stretches of time in the USA? Who benefits more?
 
Dirty Holt said:
Migran actually has pretty good striking too. Side note, Madsen moved into my housing complex at the Olympic Training Center for like 4 months in 2011. Dude is super tough
Click to expand...
Also, one other thing. You remember Stanislov Nedkov from a few years back? UFC LHW or MW who apparently wrestled for Bulgaria? His wrestling experience was always mentioned, and I know Bulgaria produces medals pretty often, but I couldn't find anything on him. Hes probably close to your/our age and may have been competing around the same time as you. Anything ring a bell?
 
They'll do fine because they're great athletes who know how to work and can pick up skill incredibly quickly, but in general I don't think we've seen the sort of mat dominance out of international stylists that we've seen out of top folk guys. Yoel Romero comes to mind here. The issue is that turning someone is very different than keeping them down. You're generally turning people who are lying flat on their bellies trying not to get turned. That's not at all what MMA is like, MMA standups are almost a perfect analog for riding someone in folk: guys framing to create space to free a leg and stand or more often guys getting to a refs/turtle position and trying to stand and fight hands to disengage. The riding and mat returns of folk could not be better suited to dominating someone in those scenarios, and you see those guys having consistent success doing so. I don't think matwork in the international styles has anywhere near as much relevance.
 
Uchi Mata said:
They'll do fine because they're great athletes who know how to work and can pick up skill incredibly quickly, but in general I don't think we've seen the sort of mat dominance out of international stylists that we've seen out of top folk guys. Yoel Romero comes to mind here. The issue is that turning someone is very different than keeping them down. You're generally turning people who are lying flat on their bellies trying not to get turned. That's not at all what MMA is like, MMA standups are almost a perfect analog for riding someone in folk: guys framing to create space to free a leg and stand or more often guys getting to a refs/turtle position and trying to stand and fight hands to disengage. The riding and mat returns of folk could not be better suited to dominating someone in those scenarios, and you see those guys having consistent success doing so. I don't think matwork in the international styles has anywhere near as much relevance.
Click to expand...
I tend to agree, however I cant help but think the strength, muscle memory, and skill that it takes to gutwrench someone against their will can easily be redirected towards preventing someone from getting out from underneath you. Im sure there would be a slight adjustment period and some Bjj training would likely help, but I would like to see more scenarios play out.

I think the key thing so far is that so many of the folk guys have been inclined to use their wrestling so much more, especially early on in their career, but it seems many of the guys who came from or primarily came from the Olympic styles tend to gravitate towards striking and bullying in the clinch. Top control and GnP haven't seemed to be a big part of their strategy. Maybe its the Olympic style rules that reward high amplitude moves and more explosive tactics that kinda lends itself to striking better. DC, Yoel, Alexis Vila, Cejudo, Hendo, etc all seemed to prefer to strike. As do many of the new foreign wrestlers coming in.
 
dsdoubled said:
I tend to agree, however I cant help but think the strength, muscle memory, and skill that it takes to gutwrench someone against their will can easily be redirected towards preventing someone from getting out from underneath you. Im sure there would be a slight adjustment period and some Bjj training would likely help, but I would like to see more scenarios play out.

I think the key thing so far is that so many of the folk guys have been inclined to use their wrestling so much more, especially early on in their career, but it seems many of the guys who came from or primarily came from the Olympic styles tend to gravitate towards striking and bullying in the clinch. Top control and GnP haven't seemed to be a big part of their strategy. Maybe its the Olympic style rules that reward high amplitude moves and more explosive tactics that kinda lends itself to striking better. DC, Yoel, Alexis Vila, Cejudo, Hendo, etc all seemed to prefer to strike. As do many of the new foreign wrestlers coming in.
Click to expand...

It's hard to generalize. I think Yoel prefers to strike because he's so worried about gassing (plus he actually has a very strong boxing background in addition to his wrestling credentials), DC wrestles or strikes as needed, really depends on the opponent and he's definitely pounded guys out on the ground especially earlier in his career and he has a deep folk background aside from his freestlye experience, Cejudo likes to take people down but he's not very effective as a ground striker or a submission threat, Hendo used to wrestle a lot and he came from that Team Quest dirty boxing school so he roughed people up in the clinch, he just fell in love with his right hand.

One thing you have to take into consideration is the huge improvement in anti-wrestling striking over the last few years. If you're a high level striker in the UFC, you most likely have a pretty decent bag of tricks to either stop the TD or get back up. Taking people down is exhausting if they just keep getting back up, so if you're an international wrestler who can take people down easily but can't keep them down it might well make more sense strategically to focus on striking and count on your existing wrestling skill set to allow you to avoid the TD. Just being a TD threat will make it easier for you to strike with people who have better pure striking credentials than you do, and you also don't have to worry about shoring up your submission game quite as quickly if you keep it on the feet. That's just a guess, and it could also have something to do with most MMA gyms being more oriented around striking training than grappling. I don't really know.
 
Uchi Mata said:
It's hard to generalize. I think Yoel prefers to strike because he's so worried about gassing (plus he actually has a very strong boxing background in addition to his wrestling credentials), DC wrestles or strikes as needed, really depends on the opponent and he's definitely pounded guys out on the ground especially earlier in his career and he has a deep folk background aside from his freestlye experience, Cejudo likes to take people down but he's not very effective as a ground striker or a submission threat, Hendo used to wrestle a lot and he came from that Team Quest dirty boxing school so he roughed people up in the clinch, he just fell in love with his right hand.

One thing you have to take into consideration is the huge improvement in anti-wrestling striking over the last few years. If you're a high level striker in the UFC, you most likely have a pretty decent bag of tricks to either stop the TD or get back up. Taking people down is exhausting if they just keep getting back up, so if you're an international wrestler who can take people down easily but can't keep them down it might well make more sense strategically to focus on striking and count on your existing wrestling skill set to allow you to avoid the TD. Just being a TD threat will make it easier for you to strike with people who have better pure striking credentials than you do, and you also don't have to worry about shoring up your submission game quite as quickly if you keep it on the feet. That's just a guess, and it could also have something to do with most MMA gyms being more oriented around striking training than grappling. I don't really know.
Click to expand...
Its been a good point of discussion. I really am looking forward to more examples playing out. The one factor that plays into this and kinda wreaks havoc with any particular theory is instincts. The vast majority of MMA fighters at or on their way to the highest levels have fantastic combative instincts. Being so skilled in any given area often makes improvised tactics quite effective. It doesn't/wouldn't surprise me a bit if a wrestler entered MMA and then all the sudden their fighting identity didn't seem to jive with the way they wrestled.
 
dsdoubled said:
Ive seen you post about this sort of thing a few times, how common is it for international studs to spend good stretches of time in the USA? Who benefits more?
Click to expand...
Both benefit the same. We get a different feel for the European or Asian style, and they get a feel for really hard training which most are not used to.

I dont think Nedkov was any kind of wrestler outside casual as a kid. For sure, he wasnt active at any national level.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
1,236,714
Messages
55,436,727
Members
174,775
Latest member
Ruckus245

Share this page

Back
Top