Howard Davis is horrible pad holder

A lot of trainers in boxing use mitts for little more than ego-stroking. In other words, they make their fighters feel good, and feel like work is being done even if it's not. After all, for most of them, the goal is to sustain a living, not necessarily do amazing things.
Off topic, but if you don't mind me asking. In your opinion, what is the role of mitwork in striking arts?

My current coach rarely works mits with me. Nearly all my progression has come from his instruction/critique of my form and use of the striking tools and routines. Shadow boxing, heavy bag, speed bag, double end bag, slip bag, slip line, etc.

Even in his own words, he claims to use mits mostly for breaking up the monotany of pounding on bags round after round.
 
I rarely use mitts nowadays. But not because they don't serve a purpose, and not because I suck with them. But because they just don't make all that much difference. When I first cut them down my higher-level fighters were VERY upset. For one, they didn't like not feeling as if they were being worked out. Second, they didn't like correction without contact. But I found it went a step beyond that, it was MY specific contact...because they were very wary of the drills we use. Then my student Daijon said something interesting. For the record, for anyone who doesn't know...this is Daijon and I, doing mitts:



He had switched gyms for a couple of months, but he wasn't being disloyal. He tried out one other trainer but it very quickly went South, so he was over there just working out on his own mostly, and sparring here and there. He said this, and I'm quoting word-for-word to the best of my ability: "Yeah there was a moment where I stopped being mad at you about that mitt shit and just kinda got over it. The first time I sparred (let's just say his name was "Lance"), they asked me after I had sparred Kevin Johnson (Pro) for 5 rounds, and I had already worked out and ran, so I was tired. He smacked me around a bit, gave me a bloody nose and lip but I held my own. So this time they asked me right away but they knew I wasn't working with the coach anymore, so dude said: 'you sure you wanna do this, 'cause he's been preparing for this fight?' I said: 'why, you think he's gonna whoop my ass?' Dude said: 'well he did last time, right?' I said: 'yeah, you just worry about him, I'll worry about me.' So we get in there, I'm by myself, no coach, not even water, not a soul in my corner. He's over there with 5 people in his corner, and a minute into the first round I drop him. Did it again in the third round. That's when it hit me that I had been watching him do AT LEAST 5 rounds of mitt-work every day and I wasn't doing shit other than practicing what you taught us on the bags."

So long story short, here:



IMO drills are much, much, much, much better at teaching the body to respond properly to actual combat. They are the foundation of the Eastern Bloc and Cuban amateur programs, and everywhere else that hires their Coaches. I've begun using them. Here's an example:



There are two in there doing a very advanced drill. The kids with the white shirt, and red shirt. One of them recently started sparring, and of course everyone in our gym near his weight has much more experience. So I was nervous at first as to how he'd do because he'd only done restricted (we call it "structured") sparring, where it's particular moves at a time. But he'd been doing very well with that. Well, this is how his first session went (white headgear):



Oscar has done mitts MAYBE 5 times...ever. Chino does them about 2-4 times a week. His trainer is a good trainer who I respect a lot, though.
 
^^Would like 2x if I could

Rockstars on the pads in the gym I've seen often perform nearly opposite when it comes time to put it to use.

Pads are like the board-breaking of boxing, makes people look and feel cool and ehh not completely useless but deceptively MUCH less applicable than anyone would be willing to admit.
 
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^^Would like 2x if I could

Rockstars on the padsin the gym I've seen often perform nearly opposite when it comes time to put it to use.

Pads are like the board-breaking of boxing, makes people feel look and feel cool and ehh not completely useless but deceptively MUCH less applicable than anyone would be willing to admit.
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There are two in there doing a very advanced drill. The kids with the white shirt, and red shirt. One of them recently started sparring, and of course everyone in our gym near his weight has much more experience. So I was nervous at first as to how he'd do because he'd only done restricted (we call it "structured") sparring, where it's particular moves at a time. But he'd been doing very well with that. Well, this is how his first session went (white headgear):



Oscar has done mitts MAYBE 5 times...ever. Chino does them about 2-4 times a week. His trainer is a good trainer who I respect a lot, though.

That's crazy how good he looked for his first sparring. Looks like a variety of drills covering various scenarios, getting progressively more advanced, is the way to go. I'm guessing the structure of when a student is ready to use what and staying consistent with it is a key thing.

Learn basics of stance -> drill -> learn basic of move A and B -> drill -> Learn basics of parry A and B -> drill -> learn basics of slipping/blocking move A and B -> combine it all in a drill -> learn basics of move C and D -> drill -> so on.

Something like that right? Making a judgement call for each student if they need to go back and practice this or that, and if they are ready to move on and do this, or spar.
 
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Worst part are the ones who have made their padwork into a flashy performance that have nothing to do with how they fight. They will do endless rounds after rounds of very cool moves that never get used in combat

Reminds me of tma guys doing many different moves in katas. When i ask how they use those moves, the answer is "yeah we dont really use it in combat. But its a important part of the style"
 
^^Would like 2x if I could

Rockstars on the pads in the gym I've seen often perform nearly opposite when it comes time to put it to use.

Pads are like the board-breaking of boxing, makes people feel look and feel cool and ehh not completely useless but deceptively MUCH less applicable than anyone would be willing to admit.

But isnt that more a case of how you use pads? Sure you can go just the flashy way and its a great ego booster but I really love mitts when covering distance is included, or random slips with moving around. Training reaction with throwing as soon as pad holder helds it up...etc Helps me a lot in learning distance control and honestly it shows me much better how bad I am at certain things like (f.e. my big mistake stayin in mid range all the time & throw a combo while moving) then heavy bag. I am a beginner so take my comment lightly but if someone knows a little how to do pad work I really like it and imo benefit a lot.

My litmus test regarding if something helps in sports is always how much its able to show me my deficits and mitts do a good job at that in my experience. Felt like shit after the last session which is good :)
 
But isnt that more a case of how you use pads? Sure you can go just the flashy way and its a great ego booster but I really love mitts when covering distance is included, or random slips with moving around. Training reaction with throwing as soon as pad holder helds it up...etc Helps me a lot in learning distance control and honestly it shows me much better how bad I am at certain things like (f.e. my big mistake stayin in mid range all the time & throw a combo while moving) then heavy bag. I am a beginner so take my comment lightly but if someone knows a little how to do pad work I really like it and imo benefit a lot.

My litmus test regarding if something helps in sports is always how much its able to show me my deficits and mitts do a good job at that in my experience. Felt like shit after the last session which is good :)

It can help with some things but its just really not any kind of indicator how effective you'll be when sparring or fighting. It's just one way to learn some things but not vital (not the only way to learn those things)

I'm not going to say good padwork is a complete waste of time, it's just not the staple of training that casual perception has made it into recently
 
^^Would like 2x if I could

Rockstars on the pads in the gym I've seen often perform nearly opposite when it comes time to put it to use.

Pads are like the board-breaking of boxing, makes people feel look and feel cool and ehh not completely useless but deceptively MUCH less applicable than anyone would be willing to admit.
Meh, I disagree.
Pad work done correctly focuses learning. It’s a direct connection between instructor and learner, the action is the same as a drill or on a heavy bag, but the learning is different.

You could read a book on how to bake a cake, might be that when it comes to finally baking that cake you can do it or you can’t. You can watch a video on how to bake a cake, we do it in groups and i’ll step in now and again to correct you and chances are you’ll probably get pretty close. If me and you bake a cake together, I can break everything down as to what your doing why your doing it and why it’s relivent to you directly. You’ll also have that direct learning experience where you won’t remember the word of me correcting you, you’ll remember the action and experience of it.

But yeah, they are over used!
 
Meh, I disagree.
Pad work done correctly focuses learning. It’s a direct connection between instructor and learner, the action is the same as a drill or on a heavy bag, but the learning is different.

You could read a book on how to bake a cake, might be that when it comes to finally baking that cake you can do it or you can’t. You can watch a video on how to bake a cake, we do it in groups and i’ll step in now and again to correct you and chances are you’ll probably get pretty close. If me and you bake a cake together, I can break everything down as to what your doing why your doing it and why it’s relivent to you directly. You’ll also have that direct learning experience where you won’t remember the word of me correcting you, you’ll remember the action and experience of it.

But yeah, they are over used!

I think pads may have a lot more application/use in MT and kickboxing, I was going to add that in before I forgot. Besides the conditioning aspect, the holder can basically mimic an opponent in MT when holding the pads. It doesn't work that way so much with boxing mitts

Was just referring to boxing where the pads are used more limitedly and arent worn all over the body. It's different and from what I've seen it's very limited with what most people learn from it in a boxing context.
 
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Many coaches think they can feed mitts, will even say as much, but take one look at them doing it and you'll realize they're fucking terrible.

It's not a matter of just punching things. A good feeder will be able to work all aspects of his fighter's game. Proper form, defense, footwork, speed, angles, reactions, counters, cutting off the ring, etc. All of these things can be developed if the coach is worth their salt. If a coach is just awkwardly holding up mitts, occasionally throwing a "counter" 6 feet away from the head of a fighter... well yeah, that coach should probably not hold mitts.

Mittwork is one of the very many tools used to develop a fighter. There isn't a useful tool that I'll disregard when bringing up my stable, and mitts are no exception.

A good litmus is this:

Do 99% of professional fighters, with literally millions of dollars on the line, utilize this tool when training? If the answer is yes, it's probably something worth exploring.
 
Many coaches think they can feed mitts, will even say as much, but take one look at them doing it and you'll realize they're fucking terrible.

It's not a matter of just punching things. A good feeder will be able to work all aspects of his fighter's game. Proper form, defense, footwork, speed, angles, reactions, counters, cutting off the ring, etc. All of these things can be developed if the coach is worth their salt. If a coach is just awkwardly holding up mitts, occasionally throwing a "counter" 6 feet away from the head of a fighter... well yeah, that coach should probably not hold mitts.

Mittwork is one of the very many tools used to develop a fighter. There isn't a useful tool that I'll disregard when bringing up my stable, and mitts are no exception.

A good litmus is this:

Do 99% of professional fighters, with literally millions of dollars on the line, utilize this tool when training? If the answer is yes, it's probably something worth exploring.

Yeah but like I said before, it's alarming when fluid fuckers on the pads are lousy at sparring/fighting. It doesn’t correlate as much as people think it does. It just looks cool.
 
Yeah but like I said before, it's alarming when fluid fuckers on the pads are lousy at sparring/fighting. It doesn’t correlate as much as people think it does. It just looks cool.

If they look great on the mitts, but look terrible while sparring or fighting, it's because their coach is neglecting the many other facets of training and failing his fighter as a result.

It doesn't "just look cool", it serves many important purposes and, with the help of many many other training tools, can really help develop a fighter.
 
and one of the most highly touted pro prospects ever. never quite lived up to the billing, but a hell of a fighter anyway.
He undeservedly took Aaron Pryor's spot on the olympic team and history has shown who the more talented fighter was.
 
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