illegal immigration is a crime?

[Teppodama]

You can go too, frankly.

Now don't be bitter HT. No need for that as I haven't direct any shit your way today nor have I been unreasonable in my discussions. Today has actually been a rather chill day with the occasional joke post. Don't ruin my good mood with any of your petulant bullshit.

 

[panamaican]

If someone sues you civilly for a 1 million dollars, but you don't show up to your civil court date, then guess what? you forfeited your case and now you have to pay the other person 1 million dollars.

It's the same concept. Remember, visa overstay is a civil offense.

I just said that it's a civil offense but skipping your court date is a criminal offense at the federal level.

So, if you're ordered to appear in federal court, even for a civil penalty, and you don't show up it can be treated as a crime. Which is what happens in immigration cases. The NTA is a federal summons, it's served in accordance with the rules the immigrant agrees to when they get their visa. When they disregard the NTA, it can be treated as a separate criminal offense. So now there are 2 issues in play: 1) the civil offense for unlawful presence; and 2) the criminal offense for disregarding a federal summons.

 

[panamaican]

Actually this is incorrect. Many people DO end up in jail specifically for civil offenses.

An example?

A speeding ticket. Technically a civil offense, but try missing your court hearing and not show up.

Know what happens?

in Atlanta Georgia at least they send out a WARRANT for your arrest.

I would assume that a supposed lawyer should know this.

Missing your court hearing is a criminal offense. The ticket is a civil offense, skipping your properly summoned hearing is a criminal offense. Thus jail.

So don't skip hearings, even for civil matters, without proper cause.

 

[syct23]

Building the country.

So there really isn't a difference between the European and Mexican ..

 

[Victor Maitland]

People go through the process of legally entering a country to work and live..
then someone just runs across the border and bypasses the whole system..

why punish someone who went by the book?

 

[Toothless King]

I just said that it's a civil offense but skipping your court date is a criminal offense at the federal level.

So, if you're ordered to appear in federal court, even for a civil penalty, and you don't show up it can be treated as a crime. Which is what happens in immigration cases. The NTA is a federal summons, it's served in accordance with the rules the immigrant agrees to when they get their visa. When they disregard the NTA, it can be treated as a separate criminal offense. So now there are 2 issues in play: 1) the civil offense for unlawful presence; and 2) the criminal offense for disregarding a federal summons.

Here is the link

http://www.messinglawoffices.com/notice_to_appear.aspx

If the Respondent fails to appear, a removal order may be entered in absentia. If a Respondent is present but not represented and expresses a desire to be represented by a lawyer to the Immigration Judge, often a continuance is granted for this purpose. If the Respondent is in custody, typically the first hearing addresses whether the Respondent is eligible for release on bond. Where a Notice to Appear is served by regular or certified mail, the Government does not normally seek detention and the person remains free on his or her own recognizance, absent a change of circumstances such as an arrest.

Basically, if you don't appear for your court date for your civil immigration offense, then a removal order will be in place for you, not jail and/or fine. You don't want to show up to court to explain to an immigration judge why we shouldn't remove you? Fine, we'll put in a removal order for you.

 

[uppercutbus]

OJ Simpson was convicted of wrongful death as a civil offense. A civil offense is just as serious. Its still an abrasion of american law that is dealt with by law enforcement.

I was just about to say the same thing.

The difference in terms shouldn't have any impact on deporting someone or not.

 

[Rod1]

why punish someone who went by the book?

How is it exactly a punishment?

 

[panamaican]

Here is the link

http://www.messinglawoffices.com/notice_to_appear.aspx



Basically, if you don't appear for your court date for your civil immigration offense, then a removal order will be in place for you, not jail and/or fine. You don't want to show up to court to explain to an immigration judge why we shouldn't remove you? Fine, we'll put in a removal order for you.

I basically typed that several posts ago. ICE steps in when they disregard the NTA to deport them. If they abide by the NTA and lose then ICE escorts them out of the country. If they abide by the NTA and win their case, ICE does nothing.

 

[Toothless King]

I basically typed that several posts ago. ICE steps in when they disregard the NTA to deport them. If they abide by the NTA and lose then ICE escorts them out of the country. If they abide by the NTA and win their case, ICE does nothing.

i thought we were talking about whether law enforcement can enforce civil offense, no?

a removal order after you failed to appear is still a civil offense (not a criminal offense like you claimed earlier) and ICE or CBP is carrying out that removal order (a civil offense).

 

[panamaican]

i thought we were talking about whether law enforcement can enforce civil offense, no?

a removal order after you failed to appear is still a civil offense (not a criminal offense like you claimed earlier) and ICE or CBP is carrying out that removal order (a civil offense).

ICE oversees the act of deportation. No matter how the decision to have you deported is reached, ICE conducts the deportation itself. A removal order after you fail to appear is not a civil offense. It is the punishment for disregarding the summons to a hearing about your civil offense.

You get an NTA. You disregard it. The judge orders you "removed in absentia", which means that the you are ordered removed even though you are not there to contest it. ICE then enforces the deportation, which is what they do for all deportations. However, you can challenge the absentia order and ICE would have to wait until it's properly adjudicated before acting.

 

[Prokofievian]

It's also a crime to smoke pot in the privacy of your own home and watch youtube videos of Russian guys crushing shit with hydraulic presses.

Pretty sure that guy's Finnish, unless the Russian's have stolen that. Unbelievable, first Karelia and now their youtubers...

 

[Rod1]

So there really isn't a difference between the European and Mexican ..

Back then Mexico was in a far better state than a lot of European places, thats why there are tons of Mexicans who descend from recent European immigrants.

 

[Rational Poster]

pro-illegal immigration crew thinks it's a civil offense

anti-illegal immigration crew thinks it's a criminal offense

let's clear this up once and for all.

Crossing the border without the proper paperwork is illegal.

Being in the country without the proper paperwork is a civil offense.

It's not really a debate if you understand what you're talking about.

 

[Leagon]

I don't see it. A civil offense is still punishable and should lead to removal from the country in the case of illegal immigration.

This is just arguing over petty semantics to avoid talking about the real issue.

1. Law is basically ritualized semantics.

2. It's an important distinction on a logical level, not just a legal one. The difference between someone breaking into your house and someone you invited getting drunk and overstaying their welcone is not a semantic difference. If you shoot your friend because he decided to crash on your couch, you're a lunatic. Also, if you have an armory in your home to fight off intruders, but all the "intruders" are people you invited who decided to hang out after everyone went home, then you aren't good at diagnosing and solving problems.

 

[Seano]

1. Law is basically ritualized semantics.

2. It's an important distinction on a logical level, not just a legal one. The difference between someone breaking into your house and someone you invited getting drunk and overstaying their welcone is not a semantic difference. If you shoot your friend because he decided to crash on your couch, you're a lunatic. Also, if you have an armory in your home to fight off intruders, but all the "intruders" are people you invited who decided to hang out after everyone went home, then you aren't good at diagnosing and solving problems.

All aspects of immigration are a matter of law. There's really no two ways about it. There's border control (sort of), Customs and immigration, etc. All law enforcement.

Frankly, the laws on immigration are pretty clear cut and not that confusing at all.

 

[Leagon]

All aspects of immigration are a matter of law. There's really no two ways about it. There's border control (sort of), Customs and immigration, etc. All law enforcement.

Frankly, the laws on immigration are pretty clear cut and not that confusing at all.

What are you talking about? Of course it's a matter of law, that's what this thread is about. But different laws apply in different situations and this thread is explaining why "illegal immigration" is not a single situation in a legal or logical sense.

 

[Seano]

What are you talking about? Of course it's a matter of law, that's what this thread is about. But different laws apply in different situations and this thread is explaining why "illegal immigration" is not a single situation in a legal or logical sense.

They are not complicated or confusing, they've been made such because we ignored those laws for decades.

 

[Leagon]

They are not complicated or confusing, they've been made such because we ignored those laws for decades.

Where did I say they were complicated or confusing?

 

[irish_thug]

Is gay sex gay?

Depends on weather or not you're in jail.