in light of recent american-chinese escalations...

[original doom]

Oh people were upset and voiced concern. We were all told that getting rid of manufacturing jobs would thus give Americans high paying tech jobs.

I honestly blame anyone who bought a TV from Walmart between 1994 and 2006 and Bill Clinton.

democrats. they are a traitorous people.

 

[58miles]

democrats. they are a traitorous people.

You do know of course that Republicans are overwhelming free traders and Clinton implemented NAFTA with almost unanimous Republican support?

 

[original doom]

You do know of course that Republicans are overwhelming free traders and Clinton implemented NAFTA with almost unanimous Republican support?

and republicans are no better.

 

[original doom]

What are you talking about? Germany's economy is the strongest it has ever been.
The Chinese and all other Asian countries would kill to have a quarter of the efficiency and industriousness the German economy has.
80 Million Germans make more profit from their economy than 1.4 Billion Chineses.
And having women integrated into our workforce and economy is a major factor of why we are so economically superior to everyone else.

what lol..perhaps im mistaken but i was under the impression that what enabled germany to remain so uber-strong was the very essence of this thread.

they did not send all their manufacturing to china.

theres nothing out of the ordinary having women working.

 

[SiKnSiN]

I'm not seeing the problem. We've gained tremendously from our partnership. And our economic relations with China were strengthened as a part of our strategy against the Soviet Union. One of Nixon's smartest moves was opening that dialogue. Then we got lucky with Deng Xiaoping pushing major economic reforms.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

What are you talking about? Germany's economy is the strongest it has ever been.
The Chinese and all other Asian countries would kill to have a quarter of the efficiency and industriousness the German economy has.
80 Million Germans make more profit from their economy than 1.4 Billion Chineses.
And having women integrated into our workforce and economy is a major factor of why we are so economically superior to everyone else.

Muh productivity. Modern china started after Mao died, it's only a matter of time until they surpass you in productivity and it's a very unequal country. I'd bet a modern chinese factory is just as efficient, excluding the bureaucracy, as a german one, but china got 1 billion peasants dragging the average down, but that's a source of future growth while your source of future growth is unreliable at best.

 

[snakedafunky]

Muh productivity. Modern china started after Mao died, it's only a matter of time until they surpass you in productivity and it's a very unequal country. I'd bet a modern chinese factory is just as efficient, excluding the bureaucracy, as a german one, but china got 1 billion peasants dragging the average down, but that's a source of future growth while your source of future growth is unreliable at best.

German manufacturing business is based in high-quality products that need skilled labor. That's mostly done by a lot of mid-sized metal companies that have been in business for a long time.
It is very difficult for other countries to compete with that because Germany has the know-how and an education system set up to feet qualified workers into the system. Same as Austria they have the same systems.

Germany has also some of the best working condition in the world. 20-30 paid vacation days a year 38 hour work week. Paid maternity leave for both parents. Free education not just at university but also in cooperation with your current employer.
And very strong labor laws overall. And the systems are working also not perfect. That is something China has to implement first.
Do you think they will be able to keep the same economic numbers when people asking for better working conditions and labor laws?
In Germany, people are talking about a 35 hour work week. While they install suicide nets in China so workers don't commit suicide because of the working conditions.

China might overtake Germany itself. But that is exactly why we are pushing so hard for the EU.
To compete against 500 Million Europeans with financial and economic policies model after Germany is going to be difficult for anyone.
Right now the German future looks brighter than that of China. Because Germany already has an economy fit for the 21st century.

 

[NoDak]

German manufacturing business is based in high-quality products that need skilled labor. That's mostly done by a lot of mid-sized metal companies that have been in business for a long time.
It is very difficult for other countries to compete with that because Germany has the know-how and an education system set up to feet qualified workers into the system. Same as Austria they have the same systems.

Germany has also some of the best working condition in the world. 20-30 paid vacation days a year 38 hour work week. Paid maternity leave for both parents. Free education not just at university but also in cooperation with your current employer.
And very strong labor laws overall. And the systems are working also not perfect. That is something China has to implement first.
Do you think they will be able to keep the same economic numbers when people asking for better working conditions and labor laws?
In Germany, people are talking about a 35 hour work week. While they install suicide nets in China so workers don't commit suicide because of the working conditions.

China might overtake Germany itself. But that is exactly why we are pushing so hard for the EU.
To compete against 500 Million Europeans with financial and economic policies model after Germany is going to be difficult for anyone.
Right now the German future looks brighter than that of China. Because Germany already has an economy fit for the 21st century.

I love Germany's centralized R&D model and world-class science and technology institutions, particularly the Max Planck Gesellschaft, Fraunhofer Gesellschaft zur Förderung der angewandten Forschung, Helmholtz-Gemeinschaft Deutscher Forschungszentren und Leibniz-Gemeinschaft.

The MPG (formerly Kaiser Wilhelm) is an umbrella organization with 83 separate institutes dedicated and spread through every field and sub-field of the physical and life sciences. It's kind of a long held dream for me to eventually work at one of them but I'm probably going to Norway instead, the scientific culture is very weak there thanks in part to its petroleum wealth and dependency, they're going to need a larger and more diversified STEM workforce.

In its most recent decade review, the MPG was ranked as the #2 leading institute worldwide for scientific research by Thomson-Reuters Science Watch:

"The Max Planck Society ranks at #2 overall, with 69,373 papers cited 1,366,087 times. This institution, with its many component facilities, is a heavy hitter in the physical sciences, with the fields of Physics, Chemistry, and Space Science among its top-cited fields.

In fact, the Max Planck Society is the top-ranking institution overall in Physics and Space Science, and ranks at #2 overall in Chemistry. Ferenc Krausz and Manfred Reetz have both spoken with ScienceWatch.com about their highly cited work. Molecular Biology & Genetics and Biology & Bio-Chemistry round out the top five fields for the organization, which ranks at #2 overall in both fields."

Nobel Prizes from the KWG/MPG alone:

1914: Max von Laue (Physics)
1915: Richard Willstatter (Chemistry)
1918: Max Planck (Physics)
1918: Fritz Haber (Chemistry)
1921: Albert Einstein (Physics)
1922: Otto Meyerhof (Medicine)
1925: James Franck (Physics)
1931: Carl Bosch (Chemistry)
1931: Otto Heinrich Warburg (Medicine)
1932: Werner Heisenberg (Physics)
1935: Hans Speeman (Medicine)
1936: Peter Debye (Chemistry)
1938: Richard Kuhn (Chemistry)
1939: Adolf Butenandt (Chemistry)
1944: Otto Hahn (Chemistry)
[ [ Rename & Rebuilding Process ] ]
1954: Walter Bothe (Physics)
1963: Karl Ziegler (Chemistry)
1964: Feodor Lynen (Medicine)
1967: Manfred Eigen (Chemistry)
1973: Konrad Lorenz (Medicine)
1984: Georges Kohler (Medicine)
1985: Klaus von Klitzing (Physics)
1986: Ernst Ruska (Physics)
1988: Johann Deisenhofer (Chemistry)
1988: Harmut Michel (Chemistry)
1988: Robert Huber (Chemistry)
1991: Bert Sakmann (Medicine)
1991: Erwin Neher (Medicine)
1995: Paul Crutzen (Chemistry)
1995: Christiane Volhard (Medicine)
2005: Theodor Hansch (Physics)
2007: Gerhard Ertel (Chemistry)
2014: Stefan W. Hell (Chemistry)

BOLD = major historical science figure and usually very interesting stories and relationships in regards to NSDAP and World War II.

 

[NoDak]

Until 2042 or 2043, the US shall still have the lead in the technology race with Communist China, but with each passing year that lead narrows. So, if anything is to be won it must be fought for now.
After that they will have technological parity and four times the population, much higher industrial productivity and a much more focused government that is not distracted by elections waging (economical) war against you.

It depends on what kind of technology you're talking about, they will catch up (or not) in different sectors within various time periods. Outside of perhaps the automotive industry, the US maintains an edge in advanced materials, aerospace, agriculture, biotech, computing and information tech, energy, life science, military/space and last but not least: semiconductors, which are the crown jewel of modern technology and enable advances in just about everything else.

OTOH the level of sociopolitical fukkery going on in this country is absolutely surreal and may very well take the whole fucking thing down within the next couple of decades if people don't get a grip and chill out, who knows.

 

[ShinkanPo]

It depends on what kind of technology you're talking about, they will catch up (or not) in different sectors within various time periods. Outside of perhaps the automotive industry, the US maintains an edge in advanced materials, aerospace, agriculture, biotech, computing and information tech, energy, life science, military/space and last but not least: semiconductors, which are the crown jewel of modern technology and enable advances in just about everything else.

OTOH the level of sociopolitical fukkery going on in this country is absolutely surreal and may very well take the whole fucking thing down within the next couple of decades if people don't get a grip and chill out, who knows.

Political fuckery needs to end but I assume there is also political fuckery in China but atleast not as obstructionist like democratic countries.

So I heared on the news that USA will start imposing sanctions on the purchase of Russian Military hardware and China has stated they will opose it.

If ever China violates these new sanctions could we see the USA start sanctioning Chinese companies actively?

ZTE?HuaWei? Alibabuy?

 

[Orgasmo]

It'll blow over soon. I gotta say I expected the US stock market to tank a lot harder, but it's been pretty mild so good for my retirement portfolio.

 

[NoDak]

Political fuckery needs to end but I assume there is also political fuckery in China but atleast not as obstructionist like democratic countries.

So I heared on the news that USA will start imposing sanctions on the purchase of Russian Military hardware and China has stated they will opose it.

If ever China violates these new sanctions could we see the USA start sanctioning Chinese companies actively?

ZTE?HuaWei? Alibabuy?

I heard about that, and China says "there will be consequences". Every time they come with that shit it just makes me wish the US would bite down harder and deal even more aggressively with them.

 

[RockstarChris]

What is China going to do? Stop exporting illegal products?

 

[Rod1]

The claim was that China would liberalize. There was an ideological agenda to it. If China would liberalize, essentially join the neo-liberal world order, the neo-liberal power structure would further entrench itself as the supreme authority and further facilitate global consolidation.

Those in power don't care about nation, culture, ethnicity, race, religion etc. They are willing to throw the populace under the bus to keep the gears greased. The fact that the manufacturing base in Rust Belt was hollowed out doesn't matter to them. They don't care about self sufficiency or self reliance. In fact, exporting jobs and leaving people with less options makes people more dependent on those in power. Plus they make a sh!t ton of money selling our country out from under us.

Its so fucking surreal to see the term "neoliberal" being used in Sherdog by right wing posters.

Unless neoliberal means something else to you.

Also America is still an industrial powerhouse, its just that you actually need a degree to work in a factory nowadays.

 

[Rod1]

China wont do shit, and its far better for it to be economically tied to America than against it and stirring shit up.

America just needs to pressure it into opening up.

 

[NoDak]

Also America is still an industrial powerhouse, its just that you actually need a degree to work in a factory nowadays.

 

[NoDak]

US industrial output on the whole which - in addition to manufacturing - takes into account construction, mining, petroleum extraction was $3.65 trillion for 2017. It's absolutely still a powerhouse, although the high value is partially derived from being so dominant in the more advanced manufacturing sectors that have substantial R&D intensity such as aerospace and semiconductors.

 

[NoDak]

Ze best article, people live in a different world.

OZY: The US Is Beating China On The Factory Floor. This Is Why.

What’s behind America’s new place at the front of the pack? It comes down to an ongoing economic boom that some analysts are calling “Manufacturing 4.0” or “Next Manufacturing.” Manufacturers are finding that the total cost of ownership (TCO) favors U.S.-based factory production, explains Harry Moser, founder and president of the Chicago-based Reshoring Initiative, a nonprofit think tank that supports U.S.-based manufacturing.

The domestic energy boom in natural gas and fracking has lowered the cost of materials and operations, prompting more factories to return to U.S. soil. Then there’s proximity to a growing field of local suppliers that provide raw materials. And keeping production in the country means there are no duties and tariffs, reduced inventory carrying costs and R&D innovations on the factory floor aren’t at risk of intellectual property theft. Also, the U.S. doesn’t have to lower its prices or wages to be competitive with China; it needs only “a lower total cost to produce that product,” Moser explains.

But it’s about big data and high-tech innovations, too. Manufacturing is increasingly using predictive capabilities to generate value and create more efficient, lower-cost logistics to handle materials throughout the supply chain. U.S. labor costs are still higher than those of other nations, but the ability to create smart products and smart factories will make this less relevant over time.

There are potential obstacles in the United States’ race to No. 1. For one, the continued strength of the dollar could dampen international sales of U.S. industrial exports. Smart factories need skilled labor, and the number of STEM graduates and “upskilled” workers who have received technical training may not be able to keep pace with demand. What’s not going to be a problem? Robots taking jobs. Thirty-seven percent of U.S. industrialists say their need for skilled labor will actually increase as physical production becomes automated, according to a recent survey by PwC.

 

[fallable]

Its so fucking surreal to see the term "neoliberal" being used in Sherdog by right wing posters.

Unless neoliberal means something else to you.

Also America is still an industrial powerhouse, its just that you actually need a degree to work in a factory nowadays.

What would you give as a term to describe the current order?

I'm right-wing but I'm conservative right-wing. There is a whole world of right-wing conservatism outside neo-liberalism. I wish to conserve. Neo-liberalism hasn't done a very good job of conserving.

Yes, the US manufactures more now than ever. The process has become much more efficient. I think this is a good thing. That doesn't mean we are producing as much as we could be. Exporting manufacturing in exchange for cheaper labor and lower prices doesn't mean our economy is the strongest it could be either. Who needs cheap plastic junk from China anyway?

At the end of the day I ask myself is the United States of America greater than the sum of its parts, and the answer unfortunately is no we are not. Part of the reason IMO is because we've become too interconnected and interdependent with the rest of the world which prevents us from being what we could be because we are obliged to be what we are.

 

[Stokanator]

this is something that needs to be answered and frankly american capitalists need to answer.

after defeating the soviet union it was decided that the next best option was to pump china, a fellow communist nation with american manufacturing jobs.

surely it could have been fucking well surmised that sending all that wealth to a singular nation who just so happens to have a larger population than ussr and potentially far greater industrial output might have been a bad idea.

gee wizz, well done america.

I'm not convinced you've got a grasp on how our free market works. You act as if China sat around doing nothing to deserve their manufacturing success according to the OP seems to believe US officials just handed down billions in work contracts to a non ally because some American politicians chose the Chinese overnight after the fall of the Soviet Union. The US is what we call a Free Market Economy, meaning as a business owner you're free to do business with any country you please other than a small 5% group of countries that support terror and Little Rocket Man who tries to stay relevant by using nukes that don't work right half the time. Other countries we don't work with will come as no surprise, as they're extremely obvious choices. Why American any business men would consider risking their lives going to the words armpit also known as Iran, Sudan, Somalia, Libya, Lebanon, Syria? Because you'll be on Snap Chat tied to a pole with a bounty on your head!

In short the US didn't put China in position to lead American manufacturing jobs, China put themselves there by working hard to make contacts with reputable US businesses, creating an easy welcoming environment where Americans are welcomed to China with potentially great ideas, some in their infant stages that require help from engineering and designers who are truly capable of finding ways to build products to the specification customers have grown to expect. The one thing that probably put China so far ahead of its competition are likely it's significantly underpaid (if they even get a paycheck) workforce who are young, easily intimidated, and likely perform well out of fear.





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