IOGKF Goju-ryu in decline?

[Hotora86]

I have recently found out about a IOGKF Goju-ryu club in my city and wanted to give it a go. I know that Goju has different orgs with different sparring rules so I wanted to check what IOGKF does. I found a video from the 1991 IOGKF World Championship in Okinawa and another one from the 2013 IOGKF Canada Friendship Tournament... the difference blew my mind.

Goju-ryu people, could you please comment - how did IOGKF go from this:



to this:



Is it just me or do the guys from 1991 look WAY more solid than the supposed blackbelts in 2013? @LEGS MAHONEY ?

If I am not mistaken, the ref in the 2013 vid is IOGKF World Chief Instructor Tetsuji Nakamura himself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Okinawan_Gōjū-ryū_Karate-dō_Federation

 

[Hotora86]

34 views, no responses.
Looks like nobody gives a flying fuck about Goju.
Not that surprised actually.

 

[Ilk]

Haha.

What can I say. I have practiced the art as a little kid - 6-7 years old but I remember nothing as it was for a couple of months at best.
The first spar the shorter white guy seemed to train something else. He looked very boxing in hands.

The second spar looks poor. The average sherdogger may be a black belt in the art it seems. It is just sad.

Lastly I have seen only Kyokoshin spars and it is nice to see some protective gear and head punches in a karate spar.

 

[j123]

Happens to all styles when it gets popular. You know what, scratch that, happens to everything when it gets successful.

Grind -> success -> complacent

I still remember when BJJ cats said they were so much better and would never devolve because of a fool proof belt timed system (which tma's did in the past) .... Now we have the wierd buttscooting, never gotten hit in the face, guard pulling of today

 

[Azam]

I have recently found out about a IOGKF Goju-ryu club in my city and wanted to give it a go. I know that Goju has different orgs with different sparring rules so I wanted to check what IOGKF does. I found a video from the 1991 IOGKF World Championship in Okinawa and another one from the 2013 IOGKF Canada Friendship Tournament... the difference blew my mind.

Goju-ryu people, could you please comment - how did IOGKF go from this:

Is it just me or do the guys from 1991 look WAY more solid than the supposed blackbelts in 2013? @LEGS MAHONEY ?

If I am not mistaken, the ref in the 2013 vid is IOGKF World Chief Instructor Tetsuji Nakamura himself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Okinawan_Gōjū-ryū_Karate-dō_Federation

To be fair - the Okinawa tournament probably attracts a larger pool of more proficient practitioners whereas regional tournaments in Canada probably mostly attract those living in Canada already. I think the IOGKF has tournaments in multiple formats - I think they do a bit of each. I've seen point fighting competitions, kickboxing competitions & Kudo like competition also.

That said if that is the general level of the IOGFK blackbelts in Canada - that's very poor in all honesty. I think even someone off the street with no martial arts training might give them problems.

But that said I think the general level of IOGFK outside of Canada might be a hell of a lot better. I've seen some videos of IOGFK training here in the UK including sparring - it looked pretty decent. No way near as bad as that video I've just seen - if I find it I'll post it on here. I've seen quite a few IOGFK guys here in the UK cross-train & compete in Kyokushin tournaments here in the UK (they have mixed success) but they can fight.

That said yeah that sparring looks awful for black belts. Hopefully this standard doesn't apply to the IOGFK internationally otherwise that would be pretty sad to see that standards have dropped that far. You'd think the point fighting would be decent at least.

 

[shinkyoku]

Not Goju myself, but...
The first clip is Irikumi Go rules -Full contact. World championship.
The second clip is Irikumi Ju rules -Soft contact. local level tournament.
Are anyone really surprised there is a difference in level?

That said, I would have expected more skill from the "blackbelts" (Im not sure that they are) in the second.

 

[Hotora86]

Not Goju myself, but...
The first clip is Irikumi Go rules -Full contact. World championship.
The second clip is Irikumi Ju rules -Soft contact. local level tournament.
Are anyone really surprised there is a difference in level?

That said, I would have expected more skill from the "blackbelts" (Im not sure that they are) in the second.

Good point, wasn't aware that the rule set differed in the two clips.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Damn. I know nothing about this sport but I’ll comment to make you feel better.

In the first video... we’re they really allowed to axe kick someone who’s on the ground? That’s awesome

 

[j123]

Damn. I know nothing about this sport but I’ll comment to make you feel better.

In the first video... we’re they really allowed to axe kick someone who’s on the ground? That’s awesome

But why not just stomp, its faster. Axe kixj to ground is a Tekken move

 

[Hotora86]

But why not just stomp, its faster. Axe kixj to ground is a Tekken move

and that's why it's awesome.

 

[shincheckin]

im going to guess it happened around the same time muay thai went from this

to this

 

[Hotora86]

im going to guess it happened around the same time muay thai went from this

to this

Did it really tho?
I mean, SRSLY?

 

[shincheckin]

Did it really tho?
I mean, SRSLY?

this was more of a joke then anything but yeah muay thai is very watered down in the US. I dont know what IGOKF goyu ryu but you know im into karate etc. check out this video I found, hes speaking about karate but this applies to everything so you could just replace the word karate with fighting. now after training my entire life, i feel I am getting closer to the top of the mountain, which would explain why i see the similarities in everything and also how at least IMO, I am able to see what is effective, and what is not. Hes exactly right in this video though and I agree with everything he says.

 

[shincheckin]

 

[don vieira]

-That video is not a fair comparison at all.

-Terry Hill was a New Zealand world champion kickboxer. 5'11' 205 pounds of rock solid muscle and unbelievable athletic skill.

-That being said, I was in IOGKF (under Sensei Eric Shingu from Stockton, CA) from 1989-2000. Probably was the heyday for IOGKF. Sensei Higaonna was in Carlsbad, CA. Higaonna is a world renowned Martial arts master by every means. And, as humble as could be.

-Sensei Higaonna was a altruistic Master. Being from the old school, Sensei "built Good people". Same philosophy as the world renowned Police officer tactics trainer Robert "Bob" Koga, also a real world renowned martial arts master.

-The art is built for a lifetime commitment. The training is a not quick fix, but more a long term investment on health.

-Today I feel the IOGKF has "watered down" the training, but that is the price of growth. But, don't think Sensei Higaonna's top students are pushovers. They are superbly trained and incredibly destructive should they be given no other option but to protect themselves/loved ones.

-There is a HUGE difference in traditional martial arts vs MMA. MMA is the 1% er's of athletes. They are the Olympians, but have a short "life span" as "Father time" always keeps us humble. Traditional Martial arts can take a "weak" student, and over time, make them strong.

-At the end of the day I am very proud of my time in the IOGKF, fortunate to be there during the best of times IMHO. I made friendships that are still so very strong to this very day in IOGKF.

- I cherish my time spent with Sensei Higaonna and his students. Sensei changed my life.....In a great way.

Don Vieira

 

[Hotora86]

-That video is not a fair comparison at all.

-Terry Hill was a New Zealand world champion kickboxer. 5'11' 205 pounds of rock solid muscle and unbelievable athletic skill.

-That being said, I was in IOGKF (under Sensei Eric Shingu from Stockton, CA) from 1989-2000. Probably was the heyday for IOGKF. Sensei Higaonna was in Carlsbad, CA. Higaonna is a world renowned Martial arts master by every means. And, as humble as could be.

-Sensei Higaonna was a altruistic Master. Being from the old school, Sensei "built Good people". Same philosophy as the world renowned Police officer tactics trainer Robert "Bob" Koga, also a real world renowned martial arts master.

-The art is built for a lifetime commitment. The training is a not quick fix, but more a long term investment on health.

-Today I feel the IOGKF has "watered down" the training, but that is the price of growth. But, don't think Sensei Higaonna's top students are pushovers. They are superbly trained and incredibly destructive should they be given no other option but to protect themselves/loved ones.

-There is a HUGE difference in traditional martial arts vs MMA. MMA is the 1% er's of athletes. They are the Olympians, but have a short "life span" as "Father time" always keeps us humble. Traditional Martial arts can take a "weak" student, and over time, make them strong.

-At the end of the day I am very proud of my time in the IOGKF, fortunate to be there during the best of times IMHO. I made friendships that are still so very strong to this very day in IOGKF.

- I cherish my time spent with Sensei Higaonna and his students. Sensei changed my life.....In a great way.

Don Vieira

Thank You for the extensive response. I may have been too quick to judge. When time permits I will visit the closest IOGKF dojo to try it first hand. And I perfectly understand what you said about it being a lifetime commitment and a long term investment.

 

[shincheckin]

-There is a HUGE difference in traditional martial arts vs MMA. MMA is the 1% er's of athletes. They are the Olympians, but have a short "life span" as "Father time" always keeps us humble. Traditional Martial arts can take a "weak" student, and over time, make them strong.

I disagree with this. I can assure you there are a ton of guys that do MMA that are not 1% athletes. Guys that practice MMA are no different than someone practicing karate or muay thai or boxing or bjj or wrestling or so on and so forth.

Maybe you were referring to MMA as guys that compete, but I still would disagree as someone fighting in MMA is no different than someone who competes in wrestling. Even if were comparing the 1% elite athletes of MMA, to the elite wrestler, or the best kyokushin fighters out there. Dont put MMA on a pedestal just because someone "trains ufc".

 

[don vieira]

shincheckin I should have better clarified my MMA vs Traditional karate.

- I refer to MMA athletes at the Nick Diaz Level. Because I trained with Nick when he was 16 years old.

- I had no idea he was 16 at the time. I thought he was mid 20's. His muscular build was mature, he was strong, mentally tough, and just a genetic lottery winner. When he told me he was 16, I couldn't believe it.

-He is the 1% er that I refer to, the professional MMA athletes.

-I hope that clarifies what I was referring to.

 

[don vieira]

Hotara86, I am not sure where you live but not all IOGKF dojos are the same.

-On the West Coast you want to visit Mirko Buchwald in San Francisco or Paul Enfield (former IOGKF) in Clarsbad.

-Paul Enfield is probably the finest Goju-Ryu practitioner in the USA. I met him in 1989 at Bakerfield Gasshuku. He was unreal. My stupidity growing up made me think only Asians could be great at Martial Arts, and he tore that barrier down real quick for me. He is quiet, humble, and highly skilled.

-East Coast I would visit Chris Dewet.

- In Tucson, AZ Herbert Allen is awesome.

-Should you ever go to South Africa, Bakkies is the man.

-George Andrews or Ernie Molyneux in England are highly skilled.

-New Zealand, either Terry Hill or his former instructor Denis May.

- IOGKF Russia and Georgia are HARD-CORE. Some serious, only the baddest of the Eastern Europeans. Check out Paata Sensei IOGKF Georgia., unreal power/speed. He used to train the Georgian Army.

 

[Hotora86]

Hotara86, I am not sure where you live but not all IOGKF dojos are the same.

-On the West Coast you want to visit Mirko Buchwald in San Francisco or Paul Enfield (former IOGKF) in Clarsbad.

-Paul Enfield is probably the finest Goju-Ryu practitioner in the USA. I met him in 1989 at Bakerfield Gasshuku. He was unreal. My stupidity growing up made me think only Asians could be great at Martial Arts, and he tore that barrier down real quick for me. He is quiet, humble, and highly skilled.

-East Coast I would visit Chris Dewet.

- In Tucson, AZ Herbert Allen is awesome.

-Should you ever go to South Africa, Bakkies is the man.

-George Andrews or Ernie Molyneux in England are highly skilled.

-New Zealand, either Terry Hill or his former instructor Denis May.

- IOGKF Russia and Georgia are HARD-CORE. Some serious, only the baddest of the Eastern Europeans. Check out Paata Sensei IOGKF Georgia., unreal power/speed. He used to train the Georgian Army.

I'm in Poland but thanks for all that info - someone else may benefit from it.