Is catch wrestling dead? [QUINTET spoiler inside]

curren jacobs he was a d1 from mich and now trains at a top catch gym in cali he fought few times at 185 very humble guy josh got his bets student to fight him and the guy beta joshes student within 3 minutes and josh ignores him now

hes angry josh claims hes the greatest catch wrestler ever but has never even competed in catch wrestling rules cant really blame the guy he goes out fights guys 40 pounds larger or so and still wins and josh wont fight him so he can be given his dues
I actually left a comment about Curran Jacobs in the Catch thread here on Sherdog and Josh replied. This was quite a while ago though. I thought you might be referring to Jacobs. He seems really into Catch and actually defeated (finished) Brandon Ruiz in the finals of his biggest tournament. Ruiz is a monster grappler and wrestler and defeating him while giving up so much size is actually very impressive.
 
yeah hes alw
I actually left a comment about Curran Jacobs in the Catch thread here on Sherdog and Josh replied. This was quite a while ago though. I thought you might be referring to Jacobs. He seems really into Catch and actually defeated (finished) Brandon Ruiz in the finals of his biggest tournament. Ruiz is a monster grappler and wrestler and defeating him while giving up so much size is actually very impressive.
ays the small guy and always fights guys 40+ pound slarger he beats them by being faster and superior wrestling since he as ana ctual wrestler

tbh i think arts like sambo and catch wrestling u need to be a wrestler first since a lot of the art revolves around being very good at takedowns especially if used for mma guys in usa who do sambo theres just so much to have to learn to be great on the ground and takedowns as well.

thats why russians are so damn good with there sambo due to wreslting first then doing sambo they already had that wreslting base so all they have to do now is learn the sambo/catch ground game much like jacobs who only had to learn the ground part
 
The thing is that two big principles of classical catch are seen as silly nowadays: [...]being on your back is the end of the world.

How weird that modern MMA agrees that being on your back is the end of the world, and everybody trains to stand back up. I think the days of holding closed guard for 20 minutes until you get a draw and claim moral victory are past us.
 
How weird that modern MMA agrees that being on your back is the end of the world, and everybody trains to stand back up. I think the days of holding closed guard for 20 minutes until you get a draw and claim moral victory are past us.
And inumerous time we have seen people getting choked because they exposed their backs trying to get up. I fully agree that getting up is very important, but doing so without the threat of rear naked chokes is very, very different then doing with the threat.
 
And inumerous time we have seen people getting choked because they exposed their backs trying to get up. I fully agree that getting up is very important, but doing so without the threat of rear naked chokes is very, very different then doing with the threat.
The Catch tournies I’ve watched recently allow chokes.

Even if they didn’t, having the back still lets you neck crank.
 
And inumerous time we have seen people getting choked because they exposed their backs trying to get up. I fully agree that getting up is very important, but doing so without the threat of rear naked chokes is very, very different then doing with the threat.

Sure. Just like playing guard without the threat of striking is very, very different then doing with the threat. However, to say that catch is viewed as silly because it views being on your back as the end of the world, in light of the fact that when given the option, between the threat of getting your head smushed in and the threat of being RNC'ed, top MMA fighters choose to stand back up, we can both agree that your initial premise may have been flawed. Also in light of the fact that catch does/did have chokes, your original statement of:

The thing is that two big principles of classical catch are seen as silly nowadays: lack of chokes and the idea of being on your back is the end of the world. What we see today as catch is basically grapplers who like to apply positions of folk and freestyle in a grappling context.

should read as:

The thing is that two big principles of classical catch are seen as silly nowadays: [redacted] and [redacted]. Everybody tries not to get rear naked choked.
 
How weird that modern MMA agrees that being on your back is the end of the world, and everybody trains to stand back up. I think the days of holding closed guard for 20 minutes until you get a draw and claim moral victory are past us.

Almost nobody plays closed guard in no-gi bjj at the high level anymore.
Braulio Estima is the only guy on the planet that has a reliable no-gi closed guard.
 
Sure. Just like playing guard without the threat of striking is very, very different then doing with the threat. However, to say that catch is viewed as silly because it views being on your back as the end of the world, in light of the fact that when given the option, between the threat of getting your head smushed in and the threat of being RNC'ed, top MMA fighters choose to stand back up, we can both agree that your initial premise may have been flawed. Also in light of the fact that catch does/did have chokes, your original statement of:



should read as:
Well, the guard is a much better position to deal with strikes than being back mounted with the back of the head exposed. The guard player can upkick, even do ankle kicks to the kidneys and spine of the guy on top. Dealing with some gnp is better than being choked. Of course the person can calculate the risk and see if there is a chance to safely get up.

The fact is: the guard is the least vulnerable bottom position and being chest pinned is much worse than back pinned.
 
Well, the guard is a much better position to deal with strikes than being back mounted with the back of the head exposed. The guard player can upkick, even do ankle kicks to the kidneys and spine of the guy on top. Dealing with some gnp is better than being choked. Of course the person can calculate the risk and see if there is a chance to safely get up.

The fact is: the guard is the least vulnerable bottom position and being chest pinned is much worse than back pinned.
There's two misunderstandings or misrepresentations going on here. Firstly, you're conflating "getting up" with turning your back to the opponent. When getting up from guard as DatCutman referred to, you do not expose your back. You do a technical standup, or a push away and then a getup. Secondly, you conflate situations where you do base to get up in the wrestler-style with being back mounted. There is a massive difference between turning away and having someone in full back mount on you. It's like conflating "full guard" with "getting your face beat in as they have posture and keep winning the hand fight". It's nonsense. (We actually see just as much of that or maybe even more, though..)

We see all the time in MMA that fighters (especially of a US folk/collegiate background) successfully get up by turning to face the mat by intelligently fighting the hands and the hooks as they do so. Frankie Edgar famously did it versus BJ Penn (though he used a variety of getups). It's a very common move in the current UFC roster, too.

Amusingly, the seemingly more effective counter to someone trying to get to base and get up is not always to just throw two hooks in and attack their back in the BJJ style. We're seeing more and more fighters effectively using wrestling-style heavy rides to keep their opponent broken down where they can rain punches and break their energy and spirit.

The "guard" (which guard? Closed guard?) may be the least vulnerable bottom position but it seems that the best MMA fighters in the world often choose to instead attempt to escape from the bottom position through whatever means is most effective. This often ends up being a wrestling-style standup. And they do this because being on bottom is bad and means you're losing and absorbing damage. Even the "best" bottom position is still not good.
 
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Typical beej nerd behavior: quietly try to ignore any cases where more successful beejers might start performing in ways similar to more manly stylistic approaches, and meanwhile, try to take any instance of a grappler doing something similar to something commonly done in beejing to try to claim credit for the whole thing for the glory of beej.
 
tbh i think arts like sambo and catch wrestling u need to be a wrestler first since a lot of the art revolves around being very good at takedowns especially if used for mma guys in usa who do sambo theres just so much to have to learn to be great on the ground and takedowns as well.
Neil Melanson talked about this when he started training Randy Couture. He said Randy unlearned so many valuable techniques and concepts that he had already mastered from a lifetime of wrestling because Randy was training his grappling with a bjj coach. If you watch the prototypical hardnosed American wrestlers like the Schultz bros, the Brands bros, etc, it is clear they already possess so many skills that would be useful in grappling and MMA.
 
Carch guys were asking for 1996 rorion gracie seminar prices a 3~4 years ago. Why would you pay thst much when competition proven guys give seminars at a fraction of the price?
 
Melanson is full of shit... sorry...

He’s shitting on Randy’s previous Bjj coaches, but as far as we can see, melanson himself is a very guard Oriantated person... he calls himself a catch wrestler though most of his work revolves around guard play... what the hell was he going to teach randy regarding wrestling?

Have anyone ever seen any of the stuff he shows on his dvds, which are “his” work ever in a decent at least competition environment?
 
Why would I even watch his DVDs?

Well he has a following I think... Have you seen some of his work? On paper looks doable, but I don’t know it ifs just me, but I could never make his stuff work on pretty much anyone decent. I probably haven put too mlcub time on it either, but most high % stuff you see doesn’t take much too work, it it’s too complicated, shit just doesn’t work.
 
Well he has a following I think... Have you seen some of his work? On paper looks doable, but I don’t know it ifs just me, but I could never make his stuff work on pretty much anyone decent. I probably haven put too mlcub time on it either, but most high % stuff you see doesn’t take much too work, it it’s too complicated, shit just doesn’t work.

Saw some of his guard stuff on youtube. It seemed to require being a lot bigger and stronger then your opponent.
I remember some guys from the mma class who can't grapple where hyped about some of his moves that was impossible to actually do because I didn't suck as badly as the people they where testing it out on.
 
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Have anyone ever seen any of the stuff he shows on his dvds, which are “his” work ever in a decent at least competition environment?

I make efforts to judge techniques or DVDs not the creator's merits, but on their substance. So, even if he's not a big competitor, and he hasn't produced any ground up standouts, I try to only consider: is this material good? Does it work well? Sometimes really great competitors put out jank shit that doesn't work as DVD filler (or doesn't work for anyone who isn't them). Sometimes people you've never heard of change your life. At the end of the day, it's all about the quality of the material. Is it mechanically sound? Is it going to work against competent opponents? Or is it shenanigans?

Going through Melanson's library is a mixed bag. He teaches good fundamentals, and he does correctly address some good concepts in his set. I.e., breaking posture, looking to set up the triangle with off balancing, making sure you're pressuring in the right directions. There is a decent amount of, as of current knowledge, good advice.

But he also does a bunch of really weird gimmicks. This is purely from an outsider's perspective, but it seems like he was trying to be the catch wrestling Eddie Bravo. He doesn't have the same "dude weed bro" draw (though the old timey strong man mustache vibe may be his meal ticket?), nor does he have a noteworthy victory over another competitor on which to sell his platform. Instead it's just gimmick for the sake of gimmick.

By that I mean he'll take a position so normal as to not really warrant a "guard" status (head control, for instance), an already existing position (shawn williams guard, or in Melanson's vernacular, "shoulder pin guard"), or create a position/move predicated on just being long (manlets need not apply), and add a cool catch-style sounding name. Some "chokes" end up being cranks or pain more so than pure strangles. Some finishes are little...far fetched. I get it. He's trying to sell his brand. But if a gimmick doesn't produce results, it's not going to catch on. I also don't buy the "it'd work better in MMA" argument (I didn't buy it for rubber guard either, as it seems like excuses for nonperformance in grappling either way). While I believe that mechanically grappling is grappling (just because you do catch or judo or sumo or bjj doesn't mean my body or physics work any differently than before), I understand the philosophies to enacting those mechanics can be different. But this is a branding qualm, not a philosophy qualm.

If you have a discerning eye to separate fact from fiction, the set does have solid information in it. I can see if you're someone who has too much pride to learn from a BJJ set (or if you have grappling-hipster-syndrome) the fact that it's marketed as "catch" would make it more appealing. Moves like the "butcher shop choke" sound pretty cool after all. But otherwise, if you don't have such a bias, there's no reason to get it over other grappling sets that don't have the gimmick/fluff. Also probably a good idea to get a set with less of a focus on closed guard, which is neither played in grappling or in MMA at the high levels any more.
 
I make efforts to judge techniques or DVDs not the creator's merits, but on their substance. So, even if he's not a big competitor, and he hasn't produced any ground up standouts, I try to only consider: is this material good? Does it work well? Sometimes really great competitors put out jank shit that doesn't work as DVD filler (or doesn't work for anyone who isn't them). Sometimes people you've never heard of change your life. At the end of the day, it's all about the quality of the material. Is it mechanically sound? Is it going to work against competent opponents? Or is it shenanigans?

Going through Melanson's library is a mixed bag. He teaches good fundamentals, and he does correctly address some good concepts in his set. I.e., breaking posture, looking to set up the triangle with off balancing, making sure you're pressuring in the right directions. There is a decent amount of, as of current knowledge, good advice.

But he also does a bunch of really weird gimmicks. This is purely from an outsider's perspective, but it seems like he was trying to be the catch wrestling Eddie Bravo. He doesn't have the same "dude weed bro" draw (though the old timey strong man mustache vibe may be his meal ticket?), nor does he have a noteworthy victory over another competitor on which to sell his platform. Instead it's just gimmick for the sake of gimmick.

By that I mean he'll take a position so normal as to not really warrant a "guard" status (head control, for instance), an already existing position (shawn williams guard, or in Melanson's vernacular, "shoulder pin guard"), or create a position/move predicated on just being long (manlets need not apply), and add a cool catch-style sounding name. Some "chokes" end up being cranks or pain more so than pure strangles. Some finishes are little...far fetched. I get it. He's trying to sell his brand. But if a gimmick doesn't produce results, it's not going to catch on. I also don't buy the "it'd work better in MMA" argument (I didn't buy it for rubber guard either, as it seems like excuses for nonperformance in grappling either way). While I believe that mechanically grappling is grappling (just because you do catch or judo or sumo or bjj doesn't mean my body or physics work any differently than before), I understand the philosophies to enacting those mechanics can be different. But this is a branding qualm, not a philosophy qualm.

If you have a discerning eye to separate fact from fiction, the set does have solid information in it. I can see if you're someone who has too much pride to learn from a BJJ set (or if you have grappling-hipster-syndrome) the fact that it's marketed as "catch" would make it more appealing. Moves like the "butcher shop choke" sound pretty cool after all. But otherwise, if you don't have such a bias, there's no reason to get it over other grappling sets that don't have the gimmick/fluff. Also probably a good idea to get a set with less of a focus on closed guard, which is neither played in grappling or in MMA at the high levels any more.
I’ve seen only his work inntriangles, while the basics aren’t much different from most people, I was more interes in his entries, can’t even remember the names but nothing that was “original” coming from that dvd was good for me, and I am a triangle guy...
 
Melanson is full of shit... sorry...

He’s shitting on Randy’s previous Bjj coaches, but as far as we can see, melanson himself is a very guard Oriantated person... he calls himself a catch wrestler though most of his work revolves around guard play... what the hell was he going to teach randy regarding wrestling?

Have anyone ever seen any of the stuff he shows on his dvds, which are “his” work ever in a decent at least competition environment?
Just to be clear, I do believe that he is at least a little full of shit and has somehow managed to sell himself extremely well. Certainly better than what credentials and experience alone would/should warrant. But the interview I am referencing above, he wasn't really shitting on Randy's Bjj coach. He was kinda just saying that Randy had to re-learn quite a few things that he was unlearning in his pursuit of BJJ skill. I think Neil is most definitely at least a legit teacher but again I think he has somehow managed to position himself amongst the top MMA fighters and coaches in the world while his background doesn't exactly scream elite.

According to various interviews I have seen and read over the years It seems like he started training with MMA fighter Justin Mcelfresh in Ohio. They trained at a school that had a "shoot fighting" class that was kinda under the old school Bart Vale umbrella. Then he moved to LA and got with the Hayastan guys. Hayastan would've exposed him to some world class judo, freestyle and Greco roman wrestling, sambo, and I suppose catch. But with little or no competitive history it makes things a bit murky.
 
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