Is Chael Sonnen a good wrestler?

[Oj21]

He has very good mma wrestling, his takedowns are, along with gsp, the best in the sport

 

[MikeMcMann]

This is a myth that will not die, but I can assure he was not.

Sonnen was a good, but not great collegiate wrestler. Out of four yeas of eligibility, he made it to the NCAA tournament once, and made it to All American status with an 8th place finish - that is, the lowest spot of which you can be bestowed an All American.

Being a Division I wrestler makes you good, and getting to the NCAA tournament even once is also impressive, but the UFC is populated with highly credentialed wrestlers. Among his peers he isn't anything special in that regard.

In his prime though considering the field of opponents he was in, he was one of the better MMA adapted wrestlers. That is also predicated on good timing, because I don't think there is any version of Sonnen that beats any version of guys like Weidman and Romero.

^Was going to say the above but would disagree with one point.

Chael imo was not a strong MMA wrestler and was just a strong wrestler in a division where that was enough.

To be a strong MMA wrestler or to adapt your wrestling to MMA you must also have good BJJ defense. Just like in old school MMA where a dominant skill could get you by Chael got by until he met anyone with high level subs. Then he was losing most times and always the same way. In any division outside MW during the years of his prime a wrestler like Chael with such poor sub defense compared to his other skills would struggle to ever make the top 10. They would just keep getting knocked back down as they matched up against guys with decent subs to exploit them.

 

[The ScorpioN]

I don't think there is any version of Sonnen that beats any version of guys like Weidman and Romero.

The welterweight Weidman that fought Rockhold vs Sonnen that fought AS the first time would be a takedown + GnP clinic in Sonnen's favor.

 

[rjmbrd]

The welterweight Weidman that fought Rockhold vs Sonnen that fought AS the first time would be a takedown + GnP clinic in Sonnen's favor.

That is a pipe dream.

Sonnen has been submitted NINE times. Weidman wouldn't just out grapple him, he would put him away without much trouble.

 

[rjmbrd]

^Was going to say the above but would disagree with one point.

Chael imo was not a strong MMA wrestler and was just a strong wrestler in a division where that was enough.

To be a strong MMA wrestler or to adapt your wrestling to MMA you must also have good BJJ defense. Just like in old school MMA where a dominant skill could get you by Chael got by until he met anyone with high level subs. Then he was losing most times and always the same way. In any division outside MW during the years of his prime a wrestler like Chael with such poor sub defense compared to his other skills would struggle to ever make the top 10. They would just keep getting knocked back down as they matched up against guys with decent subs to exploit them.

Fair point I would agree with, but I consider that 'MMA adapted grappler' where in this case I'm talking about the context of wrestling.

No doubt about it, Sonnen had a soft spot in regards to submission losses.

 

[The ScorpioN]

That is a pipe dream.

Sonnen has been submitted NINE times. Weidman wouldn't just out grapple him, he would put him away without much trouble.

Weidman sure showed Rockhold how dangerous he is off his back.

 

[rjmbrd]

Weidman sure showed Rockhold how dangerous he is off his back.

Rockhold is an order of magnitude better submission grappler and finisher then Chael Sonnen.

Perhaps you were unaware, but Rockhold was literally a world champion in the Gi as a purple belt in jiu-jitsu. He was an elite grappler that learned how to kickbox, not the other way around.

Both Weidman and Rockhold would submit any version of Chael Sonne, just like the nine other guys who did.

 

[The ScorpioN]

Rockhold is an order of magnitude better submission grappler and finisher then Chael Sonnen.

Perhaps you were unaware, but Rockhold was literally a world champion in the Gi as a purple belt in jiu-jitsu. He was an elite grappler that learned how to kickbox, not the other way around.

Both Weidman and Rockhold would submit any version of Chael Sonne, just like the nine other guys who did.

Weidman can't grapple off his back. That much is obvious.

The welterweight that showed vs Rockhold and gassed after a round would be steamrolled by a prime Chael.

 

[007]

 

[Fyreborn]

Chael was a very good amateur wrestler, and a good but not great MMA wrestler.

The welterweight Weidman that fought Rockhold vs Sonnen that fought AS the first time would be a takedown + GnP clinic in Sonnen's favor.

Weidman is such a better MMA wrestler and grappler than Chael though. He’s much more likely to put Chael on his back than the other war around.

Chael never showed great TDD.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Fair point I would agree with, but I consider that 'MMA adapted grappler' where in this case I'm talking about the context of wrestling.

No doubt about it, Sonnen had a soft spot in regards to submission losses.

Yup.

Chael offered little threat beyond a basic wrestling threat.

If you were an opponent vulnerable to a dominant top control wrestler you were losing to Chael and likely would lose to any similar or better top control wrestler even if they had minimal to no MMA training.

Unlike someone like Fitch, Chael never developed high level sub defense which going back to the early UFC was dominant wrestler kryptonite. We would see dominant old school wrestlers wrecking guys UNTIL they met a great BJJ guy and then look completely lost and get easily submitted.

In the next stage of MMA most dominant wrestler evolved and adapted a good sub defense game to go with their wrestling and that is what we call great MMA wrestling as you are now no longer simply a victim to another dominant style in MMA.

Chael is not one of those who evolved his wrestling. It was like the old school guys in the early UFC and he required favourable matchups where he avoided an entrire foundation style (BJJ) of MMA to win because of that.

 

[ShreddinMMA]

I was a solid college wrestler and was a mostly solid MMA wrestler. His aggression got him taken down a lot of times.

His MMA wrestling is heavily tainted by the numerous failed tests. Especially with how willing he is to talk about how juiced he was back in his UFC days.

For me, he's one of those guys you have to discuss in the moment. Why he got what he did at that moment (based on what was known). If you look at him in hindsight, everything gets pretty murky.

 

[Fahrenheit1221]

I would say yes. I would cite the Okami fight as well as the first Anderson fight. You could consider the Shogun fight as well.

 

[jeremyemilio]

Does it matter? A wrestling pedigree doesn’t mean much in MMA. What was GSP’s wrestling background?

Conversely guys like Woodley, Hendricks and Gaethje who were great wrestlers don’t use it all that much.

People make a bit too lightly of GSP's wrestling training. The guy was not only taught to wrestle by Gia Sissaouri, but had Gia as a wrestling training partner for a number of years. No one gets that sort of daily exposure to elite level training and sparring in four years training as a Division I wrestler.

 

[ColombianFist]

Credentials wise, uncle chael is not that awarded like Lesnar, Carwin, Hendricks, Koscheck and other D1 and all american and even Olympians like Hendo or Cejudo, but he is a very good wrestler and he won his matches with wrestling when mma was leaning to the all around fighter.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Weidman can't grapple off his back. That much is obvious.

The welterweight that showed vs Rockhold and gassed after a round would be steamrolled by a prime Chael.

Explain beyond the Rockhold loss what makes you say that?

Because Rockhold has an awesome top game where he poses multiple threats and losing to him off your back certainly does not prove an opponent cannot fight off his back.

 

[tehMoose]

Yes

 

[Johnsonville]

Imo he was probably the best one dimensional wrestler of all time. His armature credentials may not show it, but I haven't seen anyone better at the put your nose down and chain takedowns til the guy is on his back approach. He didn't care about striking and from the start of the bell til the end he was trying to put you on your ass and that is respectable as fuck. He also had a really good chin and wasn't afraid to take a shot.

~DaViD~

 

[Munnings242]

What are the Bad Guy's wrestling credentials? Something crazy like Johnny Hendricks?I think he was one of the best wrestlers in college history.

He had some of the nastiest guillotine ever in college

 

[Jballer]

Some gems in this thread so far. Both intentionally and unintentionally hilarious.